Thursday, April 9, 2009

Gatsby Fishbowl: Chapter 6


Enjoy your discussion of Chapter 6!
Work together to figure out the unravelling mystery of Gatsby and its larger significance.

112 comments:

josed said...

Signing on...

AllisonS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kristinah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
aaronw said...

Question from the inner circle: is better to be like Gatsby and fix the past, or like Daisy and just move on?

Dennis K said...

test

jkeefer said...

Why do you think that Tom and Daisy rode horses to Gatsby's house? cant they take a car.... and Tom shows a sense of jealousy, why do you think this is a reoccuring feeling?

AllisonS said...

Aaron,

I think it's just better to move an and look to the future. Focusing on the past isnt healthy.

What do u think?

prestonK said...

Why do you think Gatsby is so accepting of Cody? Cody changed Gatsby's name for him and in the end he only received $25,000, why did he keep the name?

kristinah said...

Aaron- I agree with Erin in that I dont really think that Gatsby is tring to fix the past but more like relive it, and bring it back. He liked how it was before Daisy left and I think he is just trying to get that back.

AllisonS said...

Jason,

I don't think he is jealous exactly, I think he is more possessive and feels like some one is stealing his property.

KelseyL said...

Aaron

I think that you need a mixture of both, but you can't just have one or the other. I think that it's helpful to try and fix some of the things from the past, but sometimes it is also good to just forget the past and move on and not linger on it.

RayS said...

Aaron~ probably better to move on, if you try to fix the past you might miss the new things in life comming your way.

brennanl said...

Aaron- I think that you need to remember the past and learn from it in order to move on in the future.

Maddie.Turley said...

Aaron~

I believe it's better to be like Daisy and move on. Honestly, I feel like the past should be the past. It's part of what makes you who you are and makes you stronger to go through trials such as heartbreak. I believe that fixing the past tends to make it worse, and forcing yourself to relive it makes it harder.

Alyssa S. said...

When Gatsby meets Tom again (pg. 102, non-gold) the first thing he says is "I know your wife." Why is this the first thing he said?

aaronw said...

Allison- I'd say that yes looking to the future is better, but sometimes reliving the past is nice. Like remembering a vacation, or some old friend, that's ok. But not basing your pasy 5 years on one girl in the past.

jkeefer said...

allsion-
But Tom wants mrs wilson...

catherinec said...

aaron- Obviously Gatsby's life is controlled by Daisy. He spends every weekend and millions of dollars throwing parties just in order to find Daisy. Personally, it seems like he isn't experiencing life and so it would be more beneficial to move on.

kristinah said...

Allison- I agree with you on the jealousy thing because I think he sees Daisy as more of a possession of his more then someone he really loves, i dont know I just dont get the love/husband and wife type feeling from him and how he is with Daisy.

AllisonS said...

Alyssa,

Revenge. It's a dig at him saying that he is better or that he doesn't approve of Tom and Daisy.

prestonK said...

I would like to second Jason's question about Tom's jealousy. He is cheating on his wife but is curious about her talking to Gatsby. I think that Tom still loves Daisy but he wants to feel more love out of her. But now her love is going to another man pushing them farther apart.

josed said...

Well, aaron: It appears to me that it varies from situation to situation and personality to personality. Gatsby lives like the king of the Twenties, with enough money to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, except for what he's already done. It's his natural instinct to try and fix the few glaring things that are wrong with his life. Daisy, on the other hand, feels that her life is irreparably broken, and Tom is a jerk anyways, so she doesn't really try and fix past mistakes since they are too big to fix.

AllisonS said...

Jason,

But he still doesnt want his wife wondering off, it looks bad and he is all about looks.

Sethd said...

I think that this jelousy is a reoccouring feeling becuase this book takes a look deeper into the lives of the ellegant. There is a trend of people being different than they look on the outside, like a facade.

aaronw said...

Bren- I'd say that that is only good when looking at history, not just your own. But i guess it can be good to look on mistakes you've made and vow to not do them again. But that's not what Gatsby is doing, he's just been consumed be Diasy and him and their memories (short lived ones, that is)

RayS said...

Preston~ in the process of changing his name, it might have been a process in which he want to change his life and having a new name may be a perfect opportunity to start off who he newley wants to become

Dennis K said...

Jason- I'm not so sure about the whole horse ordeal, but if Tom is really feeling "jealous" then this has to stem from the fact that his relationship with daisy is in jeopardy.

KelseyL said...

on page 107 Tom is talking and he asks, "Who is Gatsby anyhow?" demanded Tom suddenly. "some bib bootlegger?"

We talked about Gatsby being a bootlegger in the last fishbowl, and I was just wondering if you guys think that he is a bootlegger, and if not how do you think he gets all of his money to keep up his lavish lifestyle because he didn't get as much money as he is spending from Cody.

Alyssa S. said...

Seth- So what are the things the characters are jealous about?

prestonK said...

I want to make a refrence to the two "golden girls" in the eyes on the front. I think we can see that Gatsby is trying but failing to get his golden girl Daisy. For Nick, Jordan is within reach so she may not be a golden girl. Who then is the second golden girl in the eyes?

jacqui said...

I think its interesting what the inner circle is talking about and the scandalious comments that have been said back and forth between Nick and Daisy. Do you think this is simply Daisy kidding around or is Nick a cover up for her affair with Gatsby?

AllisonS said...

Jacqui,

I think that Daisy just wants love. It doesnt matter where from really. But Nick might be a cover but I feel that she just needs the attention and is trying to make Tom jealous almost.

Dennis K said...

Preston- I'm not so sure Tom actually loves daisy. It seems more like he just always wants to maintain control over her. He just can’t accept that his wife may be eventually cheating on him.

Maddie.Turley said...

Preston~

Do you feel like Nick's golden girl has come into the picture yet? Because I honestly have not sensed a girl like that in Nick's life, at least not at the present time.

jkeefer said...

Preston-
I think that Daisy might be both of the golden girls.. She appears to have two different personalities around both of the men. Around Gastby, she is happy and quite giddy! but around Tom, she appears discontent

prestonK said...

I think she may be joking in a way. This to me seems as a way to blow of steam and get rid of the stress that is building up between living with Tom and "dating" Gatsby.

matthewg said...

@ prestonk

Maybe both the golden girls are supposed to represent daisy? What confuses me is why the artist chose a woman for the face. It would make more sense if it were Gatsby's eyes.

josed said...

Preston: remember, back in the day, twenty-five thousand dollars was a lot of money. It was a few millions, or at least a few hundred thousand. A millionaire back in the day would be a billionaire now, so keep that in mind. It was a jumping pad for Gatsby to make his fortune in the Modern world. You don't need to come from somewhere special: you need cash

Also, the things Dan Cody taught Gatsby may be more important to him than the money. It taught him the power of alcohol, I think: he was in charge of the boat when Dan was drunk. So by staying sober, Gatsby thinks he's 'in charge of the boat.' Also, if he's a bootlegger, it's that much more symbolic.

brennanl said...

Aaron- I think that Daisy makes up a lot of who Gatsby is. All he did he did basically for her, and if he just forgot and completly moved on, his life wouldnt be significant anymore. I dont think its a bad thing for Gatsby to have a purpose; hes just trying to get what he wants.

catherinec said...

KelseyL- It seems far fetched for Gatsby to be a bootlegger. One of his closest friends died of alcohol poisoning which is the reason why Gatsby doesn't drink. It would be completely ironic if Gatsby didn't "believe" in alcohol yet he was enforcing it by secretly selling it.

aaronw said...

Ya bren, i've decided that you are right: it is good to look on your own history and make changes, but again, that's not what Gatsby is doing, he's just trying to change his past and future at the same time.

Alyssa S. said...

Dennis- I agree. I think he may have really loved her in the beginning, but he fell out of love, and found an escape through Myrtle. So now, Myrtle may get the better side of Tom, and Daisy gets the dark side of him.

prestonK said...

Maddie-
I agree that Nick had a girl in his past that he shared something with. However, just as a thought, do you think it may be too late in the novel to bring in a main character. You may be right though, now that we know someone is going to die in the next chapter.

jacqui said...

Dennis
I agree with what you said about Tom not really being in love with Daisy anymore but still wanting to be in control of her and her life and actions which gives him the urge to not want an affair to happen. I think if an affair would occur then Tom would feel less in control and have not as strong power over Daisy.

Sethd said...

Does anyone see the connection between Gatsby's love for money and wealth with Diasy. She has this effortless aura of wealth and effortless luxury. Do you think that he is only attracted to Daisy becuase of this?

prestonK said...

Jason-
Interesting point about Daisy being both "golden girls." Do you think it may be more related to her personalities or her two sided life?

aaronw said...

Bren- true, but i think that it's knida weird for him to do it so haphazzardly: he is really wanting to meet daisy again, but he is doing it descreetly. Why not just come out and say, "Daisy i love you" or something?

josed said...

Maddie.Turley:Jordan is Nick's Golden Girl. Except she's more like a silver girl or something, because Nick really isn't a main character. The Golden Girl is supposed to be unapproachable, and Nick definitely won't leave Jordan anytime soon, since he doesn't have a romance like Gatsby and he envies that.

KelseyL said...

Cat
Who are you talking about, are you talking about Cody?

AllisonS said...

Seth,

I think its the opposite. I think that Daisy only really likes Gatsby for the money. I think he become what he is for Daisy. The money doesnt really mean anything to him. He shows this through his room in his house being the least lavish.

Sethd said...

Alyssa,

They are jelous of each other. Each one has something the other wants. Gastby wants love, Jordan want fun... ect.

aaronw said...

Seth- he's rich too, so why would he care?

Maddie.Turley said...

Preston~

It's very possible that it's too late, but I'm beginning to wonder if his "girl" will even be a main character. Nick stays in the background of the main focus in this book. Nick may be the narrator, but the bigger picture becomes Gatsby, the mystery. This makes me think that perhaps the girl that Nick may love wouldn't be part of the big picture either.

prestonK said...

Matt-
I like your interpretation of the picture on the subject of it being a women's face. It is interesting that it is not Gatsby because that could represent him seeing Daisy in two different ways.

kristinah said...

Sethd- I think that is a good point but I dont think that is the only reason he loves her. I think that is part of why they are so compatable but I think he just loves her for who she is.

jkeefer said...

Preston-
I think it may be a mixture of both... she lives a two sided life, just like Tom. You need a different personality for a different life.

brennanl said...

Aaron- I think that Gatsby has just taken it a little too far. He is so obsessed with changing his past(that cnat really be done)that he forgets about his future, whihc has the potential to be a lot like his past.

Sethd said...

AllisonS

Well did he meet Daisy before he fell in love with a luxurious lifestyle? I don't think he did so i think she is just icing on the cake for him and the money he has.

Sethd said...

AllisonS

Well did he meet Daisy before he fell in love with a luxurious lifestyle? I don't think he did so i think she is just icing on the cake for him and the money he has.

catherinec said...

Nick hints in a way that he was once in love on page 118 in gold band (last paragraph in chapter): "For a moment a phrase tried to take shape in my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man's, as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air. But they made no sound and what I had almost remebered was uncommunicable forever". Do you guys think that Nick could have had some sort of affair?

AllisonS said...

Seth,

But Daisy wasent rich at that point either, and all the money she "has" is Tom's. She herself has nothing. He wants to be able to be a better version of Tom.

Dennis K said...

I just wanted to bring in a quote I thought was interesting:

"Do you mind if I [Tom] eat with some people over here?"

Then Daisy replies:
"Go ahead and if you want to take down any addresses here's my little gold pencil."

It seems to me as though Daisy is almost compelling Tom to get away from her. Why is she so indifferent now? Does this reiterate hope for a relationship with Gatsby?

josed said...

Aaron: Gatsby is a shy guy. He's been cultivating a romance for years in his mind, and now he's putting it into action. If you notice, Gatsby is a subtle character: he's discreet in his parties, and he seems to be rather soft-spoken and low profile compared to the chaos that he envelops himself in. Even if be weren't scared out of his mind of losing the one love of his life forever, and thus losing himself to the chaos of the parties he uses to compensate for against Daisy, he'd still be a very subtle person in approaching Daisy.

kristinah said...

I think Gatsby really does love Daisy, does anyone else feel this way?

Sethd said...

Aaron slash Kristina

I think that he only has eyes for the rich. I think that she does have qualities that he enjoys, but i think that he is only another "thing" or material possetion that contributes to his love, money.

Alyssa S. said...

In the last chapter we were talking about if Daisy is different from who she was five years ago, when she was with Gatsby. On pg. 109, Gatsby says, "And she doesn't understand... She used to be able to understand." So does this prove that Daisy is different?

catherinec said...

KelseyL- Sorry! no, I was talking about Gatsby.

KelseyL said...

Cat

No, what close friend of his died?

jkeefer said...

kristina-
well yea!! I dont think he would go through all this effort hif he didnt really have feelings for her. I would just be unsensable

prestonK said...

Catherine-
I like how you were able to bring a quote to the thought of Nick's love. I do not think he is having any sort of affair. A chapter or two ago he talked about not having a vison of a women in his head as Gatsby and Tom did. I think he once loved but now has moved on, whether or not that love will come into play or not is yet to be known.

kristinah said...

Sethd- But Daisy doesnt have any money, all of what she "has" is toms, how would she be contributing to his love of money if she doesnt have any?

Alyssa S. said...

Kristina- I feel that way too. He has centered his entire life around Daisy and getting her back. If he didn't love her, he wouldn't go through all of that for such a long time.

Maddie.Turley said...

Seth~

I disagree that his money is the reason he views Daisy as a "thing." I do believe he does view her as an object, but not in earnest of his wealth or popularity, just as an object of desire, and possibly unrequited love.

Sethd said...

Allsion

I think that his feelings for Daisy were "true" when they were younger. Now his has been hypnotized with the luxuries of his new lyfstyle. Do you think that he would like Daisy and less if she were dirt poor. I think he only has "eyes" for the rich.

jkeefer said...

does Gatsby have a jackel and hyde outlook on life?

AllisonS said...

Kristina,

Exactly!

RayS said...

Cat~I think he has, and thats maybe what motivates him to go along with all the other affairs going on

kristinah said...

jkeefer- See yeah! that is what I mean! I don't think he would go through all this effort if she was just another "possesion" of his that he wanted. I think he really loves her and wants her back.

catherinec said...

Kelsey-
on page 106 in the gold ban: "It might have lasted indefinitely except for the fact that Ella Kaye came on board one night in Boston and a week later Dan Cody inhospitably died"

josed said...

Dennis: Gatsby is her sweetheart. He's her dream guy, and Tom is a cruel man with, as the book says, a cruel body. Although it's not mentioned, sometimes I wonder if Tom hits Daisy the way he hit Myrtle. It's not too improbable, as we don't see Daisy too often in terms of chronology.

For some reason, I think she just hates Tom and loves Gatsby in truth, but she can't bring herself to admit that her world is broken and Gatsby's is whole. If she went with Gatsby, she would not be dependent on him like she is on Tom. Gatsby would be dependent on Daisy.

prestonK said...

Jason-
While I agree that Gatsby may be portraying two different roles, i don't know if it can be classified "jackel/hyde." It just seems that he is not acting diffent enough to fall under this title.

Dennis K said...

Kristina- I agree with you. I think Gatsby truly does love Daisy. Why else would he through lavish parties and spend gratuitous amounts of money just to see her?

Sethd said...

Maddie

IMPOSSOBLE! I think that it has to be a mixture of both our ideas. I think that he wants her becuase of the luxurios presence she has as well as her ability to make him feel loved and young.

jacqui said...

kristina-
I'm totally torn in the middle with your question. I think that it once was love and now its fake infatuation. Five years ago they had a healthy relationship and were both in love with eachother. But now that time has passes Gatsby has conformed to exactly what he thinks Daisy would want to please her and not out of love

josed said...

Do you guys think Gatsby sees Dan Cody as a mentor or as a father figure?

kristinah said...

Alyssa- exactly, yeah there would be absolutly no reason for him to go after her with so much effort if he didnt. I am sure he would be able to get anyother golden girl with ease because of his money and everything like that. He loves her and that is why he is putting in this much effort.

AllisonS said...

Seth,

She is dirt poor, all the money that she "has" is all false. It's all Tom's. She is just flitting from rich man to rich man. She would not love him still if he had nothing. He doesnt care for his money but she does. He only did all of this for her because she could not live the life that he had when he was younger. She is money blinded not he.

jkeefer said...

preston-
so does he still possess a two-faced personality? He just doesn't appear to express the same attitude all the time

aaronw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
KelseyL said...

Cat
I kind of saw that part as that Ella somehow killed him to get his money. Why do you think that he died of alcohol poisoning?

aaronw said...

I agree with seth in the battle between seth/allison just bcuz the man row has to stick together

Alyssa S. said...

Kristina- I agree. He could use his money to get any other woman he wanted, but he doesn't even try to get anyone else. It's all for her.

RayS said...

jose~ More of a mentor, because he has to take care of cody and usually one doesn't take care of a parent in that way, plus cody showed him how his life could be, more like a mentor

Maddie.Turley said...

Seth~

I don't think it's her luxurious lifestyle that draws him. He is using his memories to draw on what she used to be. She used to be young, carefree, beautiful, and an innocent angel. His mind continuously returns to that state, but he never mentions that she is rich or lives in the lap of luxury. I just don't believe it's a money lure that is attracting him to his original love.

kristinah said...

Denis- I totally agree. He would not put in sooo effort without actually loving her.

Jacqui-

Maybe that is just because they have not seen each other for so long. I think Gatsby was going through all that because he felt it would be necessary to even be able to see her again. I think it they got to know each other again they could find who they were before and realize that they are still in love... kinda like the notebook.

AllisonS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alyssa S. said...

Would Daisy love Gatsby if he didn't have money?

aaronw said...

If i wasn't in the man row, however, then allison wins...

Hands down

jacqui said...

Maddie/Seth
I have to agree with Seth, Gatsby is not using Daisy as an object and does not think of her that way. Its not just becuase of the wealth it is for her personality and way she carries her self as well

AllisonS said...

Aaron,

Yay!

catherinec said...

Kelsey-
I also partly saw that it was Kaye's fault that Cody died, but I don't think it was a direct murder. It seems as though they got overly drunk together and it ended up killing Cody.

josed said...

KelseyL: You know, that might be true. I somehow think that other rich people are somehow against Gatsby. That reporter who's Dan Cody's wife might be the first of Gatsby's enemies. When you're a bootlegger, you have to go through some very powerful people to get to profit.

kristinah said...

Allison- This is kinda like when Fitzgerald had to get more money before his wife would marry him... do you remember that? She cared about his money so she could live a lavish lifestyle but he didnt care about the money, he loved her, genuinly loved her.

AllisonS said...

Kristina,

I didn't think of that but thats probably why it's in the book. It seems like the same situation in a way.

Sethd said...

Allsion

I think that Daisy has some kind of attraction to money, but i think that is due to the feeling of security that goes hand in hand with that. I think that Gastby is attracted to the luxurious way that she carries herself and acts though. Would you agree?

Maddie.Turley said...

Jacqui~

Well, part of Seth's argument says that he does view Daisy as an object, but an attractive one because of wealth and luxury. I believe that he has this image, this facade he has placed over what she has become. He wants the original Daisy, and because she cannot become her past, it's going to be impossible for him to succeed in his affection and work to have her.

Alyssa S. said...

On the inner circle, Nicole is talking about how the people at the parties are just using Gatsby. I think this relationship works both ways, because he is just using them as well, to somehow get to Daisy, or get Daisy's attention.

AllisonS said...

Seth,

I agree that she likes the security to some extent. But the amount of money is way more than a person could ever need and furthermore Gatsby is drawn to that in a way but it is more her personality that he is drawn to, not the new Daisy either, the old one before Tom. He doesnt love her for money if thats what your trying to get at.

aaronw said...

MADDIE, SETH, ALLISON AND JACQUI: WE ARE ALL AGREEING NOW. SO CHANGE THE SUBJECT...... dang it

aaronw said...

SERIUOSLY!!!!!!!

josed said...

Alyssa: I think so. It's so odd that he was the last solier that he had a 'fling' with, and I think there must have been some importan emotional strength between them. I'm not implying anything, but I think they were actually in love.

Dennis K said...

Allison- I agree! It's not an issue of money; it's an issue of love. He just happened to have enough cash to finance his exploits. It's simply a median.