Monday, April 6, 2009

Gatsby Fishbowl: Chapter 4

Enjoy discussing Chapter 4 of The Great Gatsby! Outer circle challenge: Keep trying to include passages from the text in some of your comments.

108 comments:

Dennis K said...
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josed said...
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josed said...
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Dennis K said...

test

ErinO said...
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kristinah said...

What do you guys think about the names at the beginning of the chapter? what were their significance?

Dennis K said...

Preston brought up a good point. Why would Nick reference the people that come to Gatsby's house?

helenp said...

I agree with Molly. There are all these significant people coming to Gatsby's, but they are irrelevant.

kristinah said...

sorry what was their significance?

Sethd said...

hello

AllisonS said...

Kristinah

I don't think they were significant because they are not in the book anywhere else.

matthewg said...

@ kristina

The names at the beginning of the chapter don't really have any significance, however I believe that they are meant to emphasize the enormous variety of people that attend his parties

helenp said...

To clarify:
The people have names and importance through their names, but they still don't matter to Gatsby.

brennanl said...

Kristina-
I think he wrote all the people;s names to show the lack of identity in their society. No one stood out, even though they all had different names.

jacqui said...

I thought it was interesting what nicole is bringing up right now that he would never go after a friends wife. Do you think he would actually try something with her now that she is married?

KelseyL said...

Do you think that Daisy regrets marrying Tom?

lesliel said...

A point of the irrevelence of the people is the sentence at the end of the list, "All these people came to Gatsby's house in the summer." (pg. 63) I think that he was trying to find Daisy

Sethd said...

Do you think that he is actually in love with Daisy? Or do you think he has something against Tom?

AllisonS said...

Jacqui,

I don't think Gatsby is the type of man to steal anothers wife but I do believe that Daisy would leave Tom.

Dennis K said...

Matt: I agree. The twenties were a time when everyone shared in the festivities. Partying was a universal concept at the time.

ErinO said...

Hey Kristina!
I agree with Nicole in the inner circle; I believe that the names is just to enhance the degree of people that go to these parties and need to find something.

josed said...

Here's my favorite quote in the book so far:

"...and Edgar Beaver, whose hair, they say, turned cotton-white one winter afternoon for no good reason at all"(Fitzgerald 62).

I think it sort of shows the frivolity in Modern society: like the hair just deciding to turn white, even though it serves no purpose. It shows that Gatsby's party attracts a group of people who live life on a whim. What do you guys think of it?

kristinah said...

brennan- I really like your point, just like what Cat just said, the names are of no importance to Gatsby it is like he doesnt even make an effort to learn them; showing a lack of importance of identity

lesliel said...

Cat just brought up a point I want to talk about.

What do you guys think about identity in this book? In chapter two, Fitzgerald uses Owl Eyes and Mr. Mumble. He also uses Old Sport. Why?

jacqui said...

seth
I think that Gatsby is deffinatly in love with Daisy because he
liked her even before Tom was in the picture

helenp said...

I think Gatsby has isolated himself. He prevents himself from making strong connections with people by calling them "old sport". No one is supposed to understand Gatsby.

AllisonS said...

Seth,

I think it's a mix of both. He loves Daisy but he might of forgotten her if she wasen't married to a man Gatsby didnt like. He might believe Daisy is better than Tom.

catherinec said...

KristinaH- I found that the list of names reminded me of the song we listened to in class "Piano Man". The people in the song came to listen to the piano man to forget their troubles and people, who Gatsby doesn't even know, come to his parties to forget their problems.

Sethd said...

Commenting on what is going on in the inner circle, i think that Nick would be narrating this becuase he has less bias. People in love are blind.

brennanl said...

Kristina-
Gatsby is the only one who is really identifyable in society- why? What makes him so special?

helenp said...

Allison
-I think that the only reason Gatsby hates Tom is that he is with Daisy.

lesliel said...

Jose
Maybe Fitzgerald is pointing out how society can be innocent. Maybe he thinks that society is actually innocent on the inside instead of society being "evil." Or that their is always hope or something.

jacqui said...

Allison-
yeah I get what your saying and I think its interesting that Fitzgerald has already set up that the marriage between tom and Daisy is not good so this almost makes it okay that if Daisy wants to leave Tom for another man especailly one that is head over heals for her.

josed said...

I'm sure Daisy regrets marrying Tom on some subconscious level, but she pretends to be happy most of the time, or thinks she's happy most of the time. But when she exclaims "God, I'm sophisticated!" it shows she's really not fitting in to the world she's confined to.

ErinO said...

Hey Seth
With the senerity and honesty Gatsby provides, I think that he truly loves Daisy, yet Gatsby never really seems to be telling the full truth so it could mean that he is against Tom. I think that it is probably a mix of both: he wants Daisy, and the issue he has with Tom is that he got to marry her.

Hey Everyone
Why does Gatsby not talk directly about how he received his fortune?

Sethd said...

Allison,

Are you saying that he is jelous. Do you think that if she hadn't been married that he wouldn't of noticed as much. Or do you think that becuase she is married he likes her less?

AllisonS said...

Helen,

That could be true, but maybe they knew each other in the past before he got with Daisy, But I dont know it's all pure speculation

RayS said...

Helen~ if he doesn't want close connections why is he trying to get Nick to get Daisy and him together?

AllisonS said...

Seth,

I think he is jealous. He might not of cared if no one had Daisy, its almost like if I cant have her no one can.

KelseyL said...

On pg 71 non gold band when Gatsby Nick and Mr. Wolfsheim are at lunch and when Mr. Wolfsheim brings up business, Gatsby says "This is just a friend. I told you we'd talk about that some other time." It makes you wonder about Gatsby and it brings up questions about him. What do you think that Gatsby is trying to cover up or why would he be friends with this Mr. Wolfsheim?

kristinah said...

Brennen- maybe it is because he is ahead of his time like what molly said, he is more accepting and permissable of other peoples character, personality, secrets, and lives... ya know what i mean?

Sethd said...

ErinO

Do you think that his dislike for Tom stems only from the loss of Daisy, or his rough personality?

Dennis K said...

Jose': good point; your excerpt really underscores how society in the 20s was sort of "laid back." People would do things which would seemingly serve no purpose.

maddisonm said...

Brennanl- I think that Gatsby is the only one who is really identifiable in society because he is such a mysery, if you only know rumors about a person, you want to know the truth. Also he sets himself apart the society by not drinking and partying.

kristinah said...

brennan* sorry I spelled your name wrong!

lesliel said...

Erin
I was really thinking about that the other day. It is rather foggy because he says he inherited his fortune and live like a rajah, and then he said the war came. Gatsby knew Daisy before the war, but said he went to oxford before that. Their is a blip in their age and what happened when.

helenp said...

Ray
-I think that Gatsby likes the idea of being connected to other people and loving Daisy more than he actually loves her. He hasn't seen Daisy in years. She is not the same innocent young girl she was, but he doesn't accept that she has changed.

RayS said...

Kelsey~ I think Gatsby just refers him self as friends to many people just to keep from going into other possible relationships

Sethd said...

Allison,

I kind of agree, but I still think that he is too much of an idol in this book to be so envious.

josed said...

To comment on what people are saying about Wolfsheim in the inner circle: I think that Meyer Wolfsheim is part of the seedy side of Gatsby's world. No amount of inheritance money in the world is going to be able to support Gatsby's extravagant spending. Also, for the time, Meyer Wolfsheim is a very stereotypical Jewish name (Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer, for example). I think that he's probably using a Jewish stereotype, since at the time, people were very anti-semitic, so they would associate this person with crime, even though he also appears to have a good side.

catherinec said...

I think that Daisy does regret marrying Tom. "She began to cry-- she cried and cried. I rushed out and found her mother's maid and we locked the door and got her into a cold bath. She wouldn't let go of the letter" (Fitzgerald 81). In this passage we obviously know that this letter from Gatsby. Daisy was reduced to sobbing a day before her wedding because of Gatsby. It is kind of astounding that she would choose Tom over Gatsby because Gatsby seems like much more of a gentleman.

ErinO said...

Hey Seth
Maybe it's a mixture of both. I think that he is jealous of his loss of Daisy to Tom. But he could not like Tom baised upon Tom's treatment toward Dasiy. Since affairs don't seem to be that secret within this society, maybe Gatsby (who sees and hears everything) knows about Tom's affair-->maybe he is resentful for that.

brennanl said...

Kristina-
I think that thats definetly part of it, but I feel that theres something thats more directly related to him himself, does that make sense?

AllisonS said...

Seth,

That could be true but who is idolizing him? Is it the people that know nothing about him or the people that know the real person?

I think that he is idolized that need the idol but the ones that know the truth treat him normally.

maddisonm said...

Off the inner circle discussion about “it’s a great advantage not to drink among hard-drinking people. You can hold your tongue…” I think that Gatsby does not drink so he can stay a mystery, so he can ‘hold his tongue’ What do you guys think?

josed said...

leslie- I think that most likely, Gatsby only wants to speak to daisy without a nickname: everyone else is "old sport" or "Mr. Mumbles." To him, the whole world is two dimensional compared to daisy.

KelseyL said...

CatherineC

Why do you think that Daisy married Tom instead of Gatsby?

jacqui said...

Cat-
I totally agree with what you just said. I instantly thought that the letter was from Gatsby. And he is madly in love with her and i'm still confused why she married Tom but I have a feeling that why she married him is the same reason that they are still together even though they are unhappy.

RayS said...

Maddison~that makes sense, because drunk people tend to say thing they don't mean to...an Gatsby would rather not let people know

helenp said...

Madison
I agree with you about Gatsby. He doesn't want anyone to know who he is. I also think that his friendship with Wolfsheim makes him even less credible and more of a mystery.

matthewg said...

As Nick listens incredulously to Gatsby, he imagines an image of "... a turbaned “character” leaking sawdust at every pore as he pursued a tiger through the Bois de Boulogne."

Although this is purely from Nick's imagination, does it actually reveal any truths about Gatsby's character?

kristinah said...

Brennan- yeah, maybe it is because he is unlike the typical person in that society, he doesnt party in the typical way, he lives pretty quietly and subdued... so maybe it is because he is actually showing who he is vs just living a fast quick life of drinking and parties...

Sethd said...

Allison,

Excellent point! But the way Fitzgerald writes about him is kind of different from the rest of the chharacters. Do you think that Nick idolizes him or just has respect for him?

catherinec said...

KelseyL- I honestly have no idea. I was thinking maybe Daisy didn't want to create drama or create a scene. Like Gatsby, Daisy seems like one of those types of people who don't like to be in the limelight because of a disturbance or embarrasment.

brennanl said...

Did anyone get the impression that Gatsby lives his life according to what other people percieve him to be?

josed said...

Kelsey: It's probably because she lost touch with him, and then there's also the fight she had with her family about going out with soldiers. Besides, it appears that Tom and Daisy are in-and-out of love. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it appears they're happy one moment, depressed the next.

maddisonm said...

Kelseyl- I think Daisy married Tom to try and fill that part in her life that was missing. Obviously it is not “genuine” because Tom still sees other women. You can tell that Gatsby still brings back emotions to Daisy because of her reaction when she hears his name again. She says, “Gatsby, what Gatsby?”

AllisonS said...

Seth,

Thanks, and I think that Nick is more confused about him. He sees him as an idol as he is talking to him but when Gatsby isnt around he seems to question him.

And what do you mean by Fitzgerald writes about him differently? Is it because he doesnt reveal anything about him?

helenp said...

Brennan
-I got that feeling too. He doesn't try to stop the rumors, but he seems to encourage them. The parties and the company he keeps all add to that. He also doesn't bother to keep his stories straight.

jacqui said...

at the end of the book a relationship is forming between Nick and Jordan do you think this will continue or is it simply a "fling"

catherinec said...

Brennanl- In a way I do! Gatsby has been hanging around Mr. Wolfshiem who is a gambler and criminal which is kind of surprising thinking that Gatsby is such a gentleman.

catherinec said...
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brennanl said...

Helen- thats exactly what I thought of. I also thought it was interesting that Gatsby seems to have the most identity in the town, but really he doesnt have any.

ErinO said...

Hey Preston and everyone
I think that Daisy never went to these parties that Gatsby held because I beleive deep down that she actually knows that it is the same Gatsby.

Hey Nicole and everyone
I don't think that Nick actually loves Jordan. I just think that he loves the familarity of Jordan. It seems that Nick is somewhat uncomfortable in this new world and Jordan is one of the only sources that is keeping him moving forward and transitioning into this society. I just think that he loves this new connection that brought him into this world.

Dennis K said...

Brennan- I'm not so sure about that. If you remember, while Nick and Gatsby were driving to lunch, Gatsby said he hoped Nick would get the "right" impression of him. Gatsby is somewhat confined by the perceptions of others, yet he fights them nonetheless and attempts spreads the truth.

matthewg said...

In response to my own post, I think that Nick's mental image is more of a metaphor, showing how he chases after one unattainable thing, however, is falling apart without knowing it on his way to the goal.

Sorry, I was going to include my own opinions in my previous post, but it was getting too long.

Sethd said...

ErinO,

I think that the underlying feelings from Gatsby most likely are a result of the actions Tom has when he is around Daisy. I agree, very inciteful!

josed said...

jacqui: That's a good question. Personally, I think they're going to be going out for a long time, but they really aren't in love.

They like each other.

matthewg said...

@ Brennan

I actually got the opposite idea - that Gatsby lives his life in spite of what other people think of him. His many guests at his parties have come up with many rumors about him, and although he is aware of them, he disregards them.

brennanl said...

Catherinec- why do you think that Gatbsy retains the image he does when he hangs around people like that?

helenp said...

Dennis
-By hoping that Nick got the "right" impression of him, isn't Gatsby confining himself even more? He cares about how he is percieved.

ErinO said...

Hey Everyone
What do you think about Kakos's question? Do you think that you should leave this unattainable love or should you chase it?

lesliel said...

Bren and Matthew,

I think a large part of Gatsby's life has been devoted to finding Daisy and reunited with her. I think that the rumors don't really bother him unless people close to Daisy think bad of him. He makes sure that Jordan and Nick both know the "real" story about him.

brennanl said...

Dennis and Matt- But at the same time, it shows that Gatsby really cares about how he comes across, therefore running off people's impressions of him.

lesliel said...

Erin,
It depends on the circumstances. If two people feel that way than you should chase it. But why chase for something that isn't their in the other person?

helenp said...

Erin
-If the love is unattainable then it will never live up to expectations. Gatsby thinks he is so in love that Daisy can never be as great as he thinks she is.

josed said...

To Erin: Chase it if you can. You don't want to end up like Gatsby, living a fake life afraid of coming into contact with that love and at the same time afraid of losing that love. At leas that's what I think Fitzgerald wants to say.

Dennis K said...

Helen: Everyone cares about personal image. He's not conforming to it...he's human. All i'm saying is that gatsby doesn't take the rumors about him personally. He attempts to spread the truth instead.

catherinec said...

brennanl- I think that his social stature is defined by the people he associates with. Because he throws big parties and doesn't know half the people at these parties makes him mysterious.

lesliel said...

Erin,
Nevermind, I realized my comment doesn't make sense. Lo siento.

maddisonm said...

Erino- leave it. Once unattainable, always unattainable. It will just hurt the person more in the end if they try and reach this unattainable love, and fail.
I do not think Gatsby’s love for Daisy is unattainable, however, that to me is trying to restart a fire that was put aside. What do you think?

ErinO said...

Hey Helen
How do you think Daisy has changed? Has she really changed that much? Did Tom change her character so much that she isn't that girl that Gatsby fell in love with so long ago?

helenp said...

Dennis
-I don't think he is attempting to spread the truth though. He never corrects the rumors and Nick is the only person he has bothered to tell the "truth" to, but his stories never match up. He encourages rumors more than anything.

matthewg said...

@ Brennan

I think that he does care about how he is perceived, but only to some people. I'm not sure how far everyone else is, but the choices that he makes in his life leading up to where he is now, his choices reflect that he cares about what people think of him, but even more then that, he will throw those opinions off and go his own way

helenp said...

Erin
-When Gatsby and Daisy met, she was young and foolish, trying to enjoy life. Now she is more wise to the hardships of life and accepts she can't have everything she wants. She is more cynical. When she hopes her daughter is a fool, she enforces that idea.

AllisonS said...

Why did mrs. Leclaire pull up the picture on the board?? What's the significance?

ErinO said...

Hey Madison
I agree with you. THis love reminds me of The Notebook. Their love started than took and break, but always ended up together. I think that Gatsby and Daisy are like this love. THey just had this one break and will ultimately get bake together. Oh and it is also similar-->Gatsby and Noah both went to war during the break (completely random)

catherinec said...

Back to what we first did at the begining of the class, did you guys see any colors in this particular chapter? I had touble picking out some.

lesliel said...

Allison,
It kind of looks like Gatsby before the war all in uniform.

AllisonS said...

Cat,

There was white, with Daisy's car and pearls

josed said...

Allison: I think that's what Gatsby's car looks like. It's huge enough to be Gatsby's car, but I think it's missing a dozen or so windshields according to the text. Probably the movie adaptation.

AllisonS said...

Leslie,

Okay that makes sense.

helenp said...

Cat
-I had trouble finding a lot of colors too. I think there is significance in the lack of colors. Does anyone have any ideas on that?

Dennis K said...

Helen: I disagree. Gatsby's first comment after Nick gets in is: "Well, im going to tell you something about my life. I don't want you to get the wrong idea of me from all these stories you hear." This excerpt shows that Gatsby is aware of the rumors concerning him. Although true, he does not accept them. He does not live by the image others create for him; rather, he attempts to abolish them.

ErinO said...

Hey Helen
Maybe she wants her daughter to be a fool so she won't miss out on all the things Daisy did. Instead of actually thinking things through, maybe Daisy wishes her daughter will just follow her heart and wait for "her Gatsby" instead of following her head and marrying "Tom". This reveals that she actually is regretful about her decision.

maddisonm said...

Erino- That’s such a perfect connection!! That helps explain the love in Gatsby!

catherinec said...

helenp- Nice assumption! It may be the lack of colors in this chapter to show the lack of happiness and love. This chapter is the one really defining Gatsby's love story.

aaronw said...

So i never put my extended comment for missing this fishbowl... and i have finished the book now, so i'm kind of looking back at this chapter and seeing if any signs of the end of "Gatsby" are in it.

To start, i think that the purpose of naming the people who go to his parties is to show how well known he is. Although, in hindsight, he was only well known for the aprties, not him himself. This is shown with no one giving him his final respects.

To answer another question, i totally thought that Daisy was in love with Tom. It all was pointing to Gatsby having a forbidden love for Daisy. This was mainly thecase looking back.

Last, I agree with Dennis' last comment. Gatsby never conformed to what everyone else thought of him, right down to the end.