I was hoping that we could start off discussing why Daisy acts so "out of it" in this chapter. On pg. 83 of the non-gold band book she says; "'Who is 'Tom'?' she asked innocently." Do you think that she wants to simply forget Tom, if she is being sarcastic, or if something else might be going on.
Alrighty then, let's get started...Does anybody find any significance to how Gatsby's interactions with Daisy are sort of 'fifth grade?' He's so shy and spaced out he almost destroys Nick's clock. What does that reveal about Gatsby's character?
I think that she doesn't want to include Tom in their act of deception, she doesn't want to include Tom in the situation
Preston, I think she was trying to be coy and ignoring her husband because she doesnt like him. Also Nick asked her to come alone
I want to ask about the piano scene. What is the significance of it?
I love this chapter. I think it is so funny how Gatsby tries to be all suave but really comes off like a love struck boy. I just think it's really funny.
To Preston: She's being sarcastic. It's sort of to reassure Nick that Tom isn't going to come. I think that's just her way of talking (it annoys the heck out of me, but whatever), and it symbolises how distant she is from Tom: that wasn't even on her mind when Nick invited Daisy to tea.
Jose,I think a lot of his actions of 5th grade. Love is blind and he's seems to be very overwhlemed by it.
Jose, I think Gatsby is just afraid...they havent seen each other in a long time and what is there really to say. Its not like you can really fall back 5 years to where it was.
Jose- I think that Gatsby has been waiting for so long for this moment to happen and he is trying so hard to act calm and cool but he can't hide how he really feels. It just shows how devoted Gatsby is to Daisy
Jose-I think that it has been too long for the two to be apart, Gatsby has been alone too long for him to act the same way around Daisy. He doesn't know how she has changed and how he should act around her.
I think she wants to forget Tom but it has a sense of sarcastic undertone because she know she can't.
Preston~I believe that it is an act of innocence, her way of playing the fool. She tends to lie to people, especially proven with the wedding she forced herself to go through, deceiving herself in the bargain. Perhaps it's a ploy that she is playing against Tom.
Preston- I think that when Daisy says the line 'Who is Tom?' she is simply being her normal off-beat self. I think that it shows that Daisy doesn't expect anything is up because she is completely acting in the fun and flirtatious manner that she always does.
Maddie,I agree. It was almost hard to read sometimes.
Leslie-- the piano shows how Gatsby tries to reach out to someone by letting them stay in their castle, but he ultimately fails: he lives for Daisy, and nothing else matters. He orders the boarder around like a servant.
Maddie- Yeah, I agree it was really funny.
Hey JoseI kind of believe that Gatsby acts a bit"fifth gradish" because he is meeting his love for the first time in years. This occasion calls for a "fifth grade" act.Hey PrestonI just think that Daisy is being sarcastic. However, I also beleive that she knows that she will be seeing Gatsby. For some reason, it seems that way since her reaction to Gatsby's pressence seems a bit rehersed-like she is already knew and is just acting that way to express a fain surprise. But I'm not sure.Hey EveryoneAt the end of the chapter, Nick leaves Gatsby and Daisy alone. For clarification, are they having an affair of their own?
preston- I agree. They don't really know each other anymore. Gatsby and Daisy's relationship is more in his imagination than anything. They are living off of memories.
Jose- I think Gatsby is simply nervous...beyond belief. Just consider how much he has had to sacrifice to meet her. He moved to a house right across the bay and constantly stares at her boat dock light. He is obsessive over this woman and to screw up his only chance at her would be catastrophic.
Erin,"having an affair of their own?"Who? Daisy and Nick? or Daisy and Gatsby?
Oh, wow-- three comments in a row all about me!What might the clock almost falling down show about Gatsby? I think it's rather funny, but I'm sure it has some hidden, deep, Epiphanic meaning.
Erin-I believe that Gatsby and Daisy are have somewhat of a 5th greade relationship. They are trying to be sneaky, but you can tell that it isnt working
Maddieh- I was laughing most of the chapter too! Especially when he was so embarrassed with his behaivor and couldn't decide what to do he just pulled out some of his clothes and showed them off. But what struck me the most about this part is when Daisy just started crying. Do you think it was because of the lack of time she had spent with Gatsby or just an overwhelming flow of emotion?
Jose, I don't agree with your view of the paino scene. I think that he wanted to assert his dominance over his house. He allows this man to stay here wiwthout pay or anything like that. He was just trying to impress Daisy. I think it was all in good fun
Preston- I think it was sarcastic but at the same time reveled her true, hidden feelings about Tom. Also, since Daisy knows about Tom and his other lovers, she probably did not feel bad going behind her back, she was almost excited!
Leslie-I will answer what I think and bounce a question back. I think that Gatsby is showing off in a way during the scene. He wants to show Daisy what he has without having to really do anything himself. He is still trying as hard as he can but I don't think he wants to leave Daisy's side. I want to ask though, is he acting rude towards his "butlers" just to show off or does he always act this way? He still shows kindness towards Nick but not others...
I like the part when Daisy starts crying over the shirts saying that she has never seen "such beautiful shirts before." (pg 92 no gold band)I think that she is really just crying over all the things she has lost. She is happy that Gatsby is living so nicely but she is sad that she missed out on having a life with him. I just want to talk about that. Any other thoughts?
I agree that it was really funny how Gatsby is embarrassed in front of Daisy, but on pg. 89 (non-gold), when Nick walks in and Daisy is crying, while Gatsby is suddenly happy, seemed out of place to me. What could have happened?
What do you think Klipspringer the "boarder" could represent? When I was reading I kept associating the man who never leaves with the hidden and omnipresent secrets of Gatsby. What do you think?
Hey KalynYOur comment is assuming that she knew she was going to have an affair. Do you think that she went there only to have an affair? Even if it was going to be with Nick? (Im assuming here that she knows that Gatsby isn't present in the party.)
To what the inner circle is talking about: I think the mystery to Gatsby is kind of what makes it a modern story. There is always something simple and familiar like a normal rich man but there is something unfamiliar and interesting about him that draws the reader in
Jose, The clock might be how time has slipped away between Gatsby and Daidy but when he catches it, he is getting Daisy back and things are almost returning to the way they should be.
Jose,Could you argue that because he is so unfocused on eveything besides Daisy, that this form of him ordering people around (almost rudely) could be his "real" self?
Preston- Good point. I really think that Daisy feels justified in what she's doing. She defies Tom, spending time with a "stranger." She simply doesn't acknowledge him anymore as he has cheated on her. She is simply returning the favor.
Erin- You are right. Gastby and Daisy are going to have an affair.
Jason- I think you ment somewhat of a 5th grade not greade
When Daisy cries over the shirts, do you think she is crying over the life she could of had or the loss of Gatsby? Do you think she even cares about Gatsby or just likes the attention?
Erin: I wouldn't call it an affair just yet. But currently, they're failing so badly at the mere act of talking, it's like he wants to break the ice.Do you guys think Nick considers Gatsby his friend? Does Gatsby consider Nick his friend?
@ leslieThis chapter was hard for me to keep reading, as well. I'm the same way with movies. When the humor is based around the main character embarrassing themselves I often walk out.I think that Fitzgerald tries to bring in the innocence that children possess when it comes to relationships, but it's still not any easier for me to read.
Maddie- I agree that Daisy is crying over the things she has lost. But I also think she is crying because she sees like rich, extravagant life she could have had with Gatsby. Throughout the chapter it seems like he is either trying to show off for Daisy to impress her, or rub it in her face that she could have had hat kind of life.
Do you think that Gatsby is getting himself into something that he shouldn't by trying to get back together with Daisy? for clarification: will someone end up physically or mentally hurt from this?
Maddieh~I definitely agree with you, I think she is missing the life she wanted to have. Like Seth is saying, she likes that he is happy, but at the same time, her mind drifted to what could have been.
Preston,I was just asking Jose that question. I think it could reveal something about the "real" Gatsby. He could be showing off, or he could be so distracted that his politeness is wearing off a little.
Hey LeslieIm referring to Gatsby and Daisy.Hey MaddieI beleive that Diasy is crying over all she missed out on, but what in particular? Is she crying over missing out on Gatsby himself, or is she missing out on the items and possessions he has? Or is it more like two in the same: she misses and thinks she has lost both. Yet, which one more?
Alyssa- I see that part as the moment that he discovered that she loved him back. She would have started crying because she could have felt guilty because she is still in a loveless marriage but also really happy because her true love is back in her life.And he is just giddy because he is happy that she loves him back.
Jose- I feel like they act more like fake friends because they are both susicipious of each other.
Throughout this chapter, the weather was mentioned numerous times. Coincidental or not, it was raining when Daisy appeared at Nick's house, then the rain stopped after Gatsby and Daisy had "reunited". Do you think Fitzgerald included this weather to illustrate something or was it to just affect the mood of the scene?
Jason~It's hard to say at this point, but I do believe there will be a mental wound that is left from this. I don't think they can have the relationship they both dream of having with the other. They cannot reach their dream, and in turn, it will hurt them when they try.
jason-I think that Gatsby is the only person who can get hurt from this because he has such high expectations. Gatsby doesn't even really care what Daisy thinks or wants, as long as it works into his ideals.
@ JoseI think that Gatsby views Nick as one of the few people that he can confide in, but sometimes I still wonder if he only made it seem like he was so that Nick could serve as a connection to Daisy.
Leslie- in my book I highlighted the part were (pg 87 no gold) where Gatsby is saying that it was a terrible mistake and Nick replies by saying "You're just embarrassed, that's all...Daisy is embarrassed too" I commented on the side and said 'reminds me of 5th grade' What if "adult love" was just like "5th grade love?" How would our society be different?
I have a question, what was the significance of the song in this chapter? What did it mean?
Leslie-- that's pretty much what I think. I think he's a great guy, but he's bossy as heck to anyone but Daisy. Think about it: in the war, he spearheaded a daring attack; something out of a movie. Then, Wolfsheim shows that Gatsby is most likely some sort of criminal to be rich: but he's no mobster footsoldier. He directs all the operations, keeping some sort of illegal operation working. It's just the way he is; his ambition dominates everything.
Jason- I think he will end up emotionally hurt if he tries to regain Daisy because he has been living with the illusion of the good aspects of Daisy for all these years. But I think the more time he sends with her, he may realize that she isn't as perfect as he had previously thought.
I think that Gatsby is starting to see that Nick is a kind person, not just because of what he does for others but who he is. After Daisy and Tom become more comfortable around each other, the two still ask Nick over. I think at this point they are not just bringing him over for a feeling of "safety" but the dynamic of the group.
Cat,I think the weather was put in on purpose because things could have remained stormy but they cleared up, like betwenn Gatsby and Daisy also...and thanks I didnt really noticed it had stopped raining at that point
Alyssa- so are you saying that Daisy has changed from what she was, back when gatsby and her were together? In what way has she changed?
Jose- There friendship doesn’t seem to go both directions. Gatsby is overwhelmingly commanding while Nick is left to follow orders. Gatsby is seemingly so friend-deprived that he will do anything to hold on to Nick.
MaddieH- That part struck me as well, however I kind of interpreted it as Daisy struggling with the internal conflicts that she was going through internally at the sight of the life she was truly missing out on rather than when she lost? Though now as I re read that I see that what I have said is awfully similar to what you have said.
Erin: Gatsby and Daisy's is a complicated love. Personally, I think Gatsby was the reason she wanted to change her life. She is Gatsby's golden girl and he is Daisy's 'golden guy.' He appears as unattainable for her as she is for Gatsby.
Alyssa and Erin- I think that Fitzgerald purposely makes it difficult to see if Daisy misses Gatsby or the money more. I think he wanted to put out this idea that society doesn't know what's more important: money or love? I'm a hopeless romantic so I like to pretend that she misses Gatsby more, but whatever.
Hey CatI may be reading into this too much, but I looked at the weather too. Okay, this is how I see it: when they first arrive at the house together (Gatsby and Daisy), the rain was keeping them together and forcing them to see each other again. However, when it stopped raining, the ultimatum of staying was presented: Daisy could stay with Gatsby or leave back to Tom. I think that the rain represented the ultimate choice of what to do. Im not sure how, but thats how I see the rain.
Dennis~Do you believe Nick will stay in his submissive position towards Gatsby, or do you think, in the end, he will break free from that pressure?
pg. 93 non-gold... "Now it was again a green light on a dock. His count of enchanted objects had diminished by one." At first the green light was a symbol of Gatsby's closeness to Daisy but now it is simply a light because he has Daisy. What do you think this is implying? Do you think Gatsby may lose a few other things? Everything?
Maddison,I think society would be very awkward, blind, and tentative. But it also could be so much purer. Fifth grade love is such a big thing that it can overwhelm the heart, yet it can blind people and they could do things they regret. Fifth grade love to me looks like a little child who will love anything and everything, no matter what. It could be dangerous.
What is the significance of this passage? “Daisy tumbled short of his dreams-not through her own fault, but because of the colossal vitality of his illusion.” What is this saying about Gatsby’s dream or the American dream?
Jason- I think she has changed because it's been so long. I think the way she views things has changed as a result of Tom's affair, and her daughter. I don't think she could be the same person after 20 years.
Dennis: I personally think they're both friends, but Gatsby's just so used to being alone in a crowd, if you know what I mean. He just doesn't know how to interact with other humans. That's a big theme of Modernism: you're alone in this strange new world.
Preston, I think it shows that Gatsby is willing to lose everything as long as he gets Daisy.
maddison-that quote shows just how she can not reach Gatsby's expectations. Even when gatsby has made the illusion that she does have the chance to meet them
Jose,Really good point.
Nicole,I have been struggling to define this book as Modernist, and your explanation brings it into focus more for me. Is that what truly defines Modernist? Mystery in the normal?
Allison-If Gatsby is willing to lose everything for her, do you think he will get her. Could losing the light symbolize losing one thing to obtain another or that by losing that light he loses her?
On the last page of the chapter (pg. 96, non-gold), Nick says,"Gatsby didn't know me at all now." How could this relate to yesterday's conversation about how Gatsby may be using Nick just to get to Daisy?
Preston- I agree with you completely. I get the impression that Gatsby's wealth is simply artificial. He used it to attract Daisy, yet if he fulfills his intentions, his wealth will only be wealth...nothing more.
Jasonk- What does this say about society? Do we all have illusions that people cannot live up to?
is Clara right? does Gatsby have to much of a shell on that he can't shed?
Hey EveryoneHere is one of my favorite lines from this chapter. I wanted to know what ya'll think about it."He had thrown himself into it with a creative passion, adding to it all the time, decking it out with every bright feather that drifted his way. No amount of fire or freshness can challenge what a man will store up in his ghostly heart."-What do you think about the phrase "ghostly heart?" What is that refer to or mean?
Molly- I'm not really sure of the real definition but I was thinking about all of those paintings we looked at and they were all normal things but with some mystery. Also there was a lot of emotion in each one which is like Gatsby. He has been acting on his love for Daisy, he only acts on his emotions
Alyssa,I think Gatsby is on a one way track going on one speed. He will go to any lengths to get Daisy back.
Jason~It's possible. Society's bonds have held on to him for so long, he would have been slowly building up a wall around himself, closing in on the ideals he had for his life. But I also believe that if he was able to capture one of his desires, I do not think he'd be as keen to keep a wall around himself.
Leslie- If Gatsby will do anything to get Daisy back, do you think he is just using Nick to get to Daisy?
Maddie T.- Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that Mr. Gatsby is just SO unyielding. His adamant nature can't be extinguished and Nick is already beginning to become angry and annoyed with the man. Nick and Gatsby will not stay friends if this problem isn't resolved soon.
Well, maddisonm-- It's sort of that thing that your dreams embellish what something will be like.Here's an example: Have you ever wanted something intensely, where for hours on end you couldn't think of anything but how much fun you'd have with this thing, and how boring and drab your life is without that one thing? That's sort of what happens to Gatsby. He's thinking of Daisy more as an object-- not as a person. Don't read too far into that, please. He doesn't think of her in objective terms, and thinks she'll be unchanging. He think's she's a sort of goddess, and so his expectations will be cut short when she see's just another person.It's a sad thing, really: he has some unnatainable ideal, and this golden girl is locked up in his own mind. It's a tragedy.
MollyS- From the perspective of this book, I kind of define Modernism as a love story. Love can be defined copious of ways because love is personal which is why it is also a mystery.
Erin,To me ghostly can mean empty or dead. I think that Gatsby's heart is currently empty or partially empty until he knows he can have Daisy forever.
Dennis-I think you are right. Gatsby's wealth is artificial. It means nothing to him and he treats it with no importance. Only people's interest in his wealth is of any importance.
Erin- that line stuck to me as well. I think that Gatsby has a ghostly heart because it is filled with memories from the past. The memory of Daisy haunts him everyday and he can't escape it
Hey AlyssaI dont think that Gatsby knows Nick nor does Nick really know Gatsby. They know little about each other, but not that much. I beleive that this new affair between Gatsby and Daisy will end up bringing Nick and Gatsby closer.
Preston, I dont think he is going to lose her, I think its more likely that he will lose everything else like whis money etc...then he might lose her because he has nothing to keep her with. That makes Daisy sound bad but they all seem materialistic in this book
Erin- "The ghostly heart" could refer to his lost love that the reader and the characters can still feel a presence even if its not seen
I think in the beginning Gatsby used Nick in order to get to Daisy but now realizes how great of a person he is, not just for what he does for people. Now that he has Daisy, Gatsby will act good towards Nick just becasue of the relationship the two have.
Alyssa,Absolutely. But I think that Gatsby may be starting to see what kind of person Nick is and appreciating it. They may become closer later but at least from the start Gatsby was using Nick.
I meant to say the line stuck out to me haha
Dennis~He does have an adamant personality, but at the same time, several weaknesses reveal themselves through his own time and life. For example, where Daisy is concerned, Gatsby is a nervous "5th grade" wreck supposedly. I just think that, there has to be something that Nick can overcome in Gatsby's person, that will distinguish another quality apart from forcefulness.
The inner circle is talking about gatsby's side-jobs... what would those be?
Erin- That's a good point. I never thought about that. So if Daisy is ringing Nick and Gatsby together, what will happen if Daisy leaves?
Hey EveryoneI hate to be the nonromantic of the group, but I don't think this is that great of a love story. I just am not sure about Daisy. To me, it seems like she went to Nick's house to have an affair. It was only lucky that the man she once loved was there. I beleive that it was only convient that Gatsby was there for Daisy's affair. Do you think Daisy would have had an affair whether or not Gatsby was present?
Also, I have to argue with some people who think that Daisy will be a different person after just five years. Most of us have only lived for three five-year periods, during which intense change is supposed to happen. We're thinking in terms of teenage perspective, like they met at ten and are now reuniting at fifteen. All of the disillusion is coming from Gatsby's mind. They met at twenty and are reuniting at twenty-five, more or less.
Jason, I think it is bootlegging or gambling. It's obviously illegal because of the way it is addressed and not addressed at the same time
I don't really think that love exists in this book or in Modernism really. Gatsby is the only person who can really be considered "in love" but he is in love with an idea. Bringing up a topic from last week, do you think true love exists in this novel?
Erin-- so wait, you think Daisy wanted to have an affair with her cousin, and her old flame was conviniently there?That adds some character depth to Daisy that I didn't want to imagine...
Leslie- I think Gatsby was using Nick to get to Daisy at first. But now that he has her, I think his priorities can change. He has kept himself distant and friendless in an act to show his devotion to Daisy. He never wanted to love anyone more than he loved her. But now that he has her there, I think he'll become friends with Nick because he won't feel guilty being close to other people.
Hey EveryoneCat just brought up what I was interested in! Do you think that Gatsby is dealing with illegal businesses? I'm not sure about his wealth. How did he get back all the money he lost in the war?
Helen, I dont believe it is true love. It seems like Gatsby is blinded by his own illusions. It all just seems fake and superficial
Erin,What if Daisy is doing this only as a sort of revenge on Tom? Because she kind of knows about his "girl."
Jose- but its impossible to stay the same no matter how old you are. Also Daisy got married which I would consider that a life-changing thing
a lot of people gossip about what Gatsby does, how can we be sure of what he does without him telling us?
In response to the inner cirlce talking about what Gatsby knowing/not knowing his biggest priorities, I think that he knows his priority is Daisy because Nick notes that his room is the simplest room in the house; "His bedroom was the simplest room of all" (91). It shows that his wealth hasn't completely comsumed him by any means.
Haha Sorry Keefer already brought up that point about Gatsby's money...
Erin, It's something illegal most definitly. There is no way for him to make that much money in that amount of time and he is very shady about everything. His connections and friends also make him look bad.
Jose~She may not be as different as people have been mentioning, but she is different. After having a child, and marrying a man she did not completely love, she seems different. I got the impression that, from the past, she was a bit stronger of a woman, a little more independent. Now she becomes inferior to men, she acts like a simpering fool. I just believe she has changed a lot more than what is usually accomplished in five years.
Jose-Daisy has to have changed with all that has happened in the last five years. She has been married and had a child. Her innocence is not what it was and she has been exposed to the harsh realities of life. I think that would change her more than anything else could.
Josed-It is a tragedy! I think that what Gatsby is experiencing is hidden within every human being, somehow. I think the Fitzgerald’s idea of a golden girl is so true and I like how you worded it “this golden girl is locked up in his own mind” every human has something locked up in their mind. Does this lead to judgment? Or the creation of certain standards?
helenP and everyone- I know I just brought this up in the inner cirlce, but don't you get the feeling that Gatsby's wealth is literally arficial? As in he gets his money illegally? He mentions that he lost most of his fortune before the war, how would he regain it all in such a short amount of time?
To go with the inner circle- What job do you think Gatsby was offering Nick?
Cat, I totally agree. It's all shady.
Jose- I know that I am a completely different person than I was five years ago. But I know people who haven't changed at all in five years. Maturity comes at all times and all ages. There are plenty of 20 years old and older who make the same stupid mistakes you'd expect from a teenager. I think maturity is largely based on experiences, not age.
Alyssa-I think that Gatsby trusted Nick and wanted him to sell stuff for him.
Hey JoseHaha! I forgot they were cousins!! haha but still, remember how she asked Nick if he loved her? Maybe that's where she was headed. A girl like her just wanted to be loved and wanted by others. Who cares if it may be a relative--she still thrives of that connections of adoration.
I think that Gatsby would have noticed and interacted with Nick because he was invited to the party prior to Gatsby knowing his relation with Daisy.
Jason- I can see where you get that because Nick is a salesman. What do you think he wanted him to sell? Alcohol?
Preston, Was that only because he was his neighbor or was he actually interested?
Cat- I kind of agree with Jose here; the only way Gatsby could make such wealth would be through something illegal. If he lost his inheritance, the cash has to come from another source. He doesn't seem to have a job as well.
Alyssa-i guess bonds? haha im not sure
cat-I think his wealth being literally artificial just re-enforces the idea that the wealth is meaningless. If Daisy is encouraged by Gatsby's wealth then isn't it very symbolic that the wealth is false?
oh Erin that was awesome. So clearly Nick and Daisy are in an affair
Hey EveryoneThis is a bit off-topic, but the three dots on the side of the head in the face on the cover is driving me insane! I can't think what that could possibly refer too
Ooh, guys: the inner circle got into a really cool mystery-story style argument about where Gatsby gets his money. What do you think Gatsby gets his money from.Personally, I think he's a bootlegger. Like I said in the inner circle, it'd make more sense to go through a small town for a beer transporting circuit. You know, that's where NASCAR came from, so a traffic free street would make more sense to run through there as fast as possible. And that's rumrunning 101, in case any of you want to illegally distribute alcohol. Seriously though, it's the only thing that makes sense!
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