Tuesday, April 14, 2009

Gatsby Fishbowl: Chapter 8


Sadly, today is our last fishbowl discussion day for The Great Gatsby. For me, it's the last time I ever get to fishbowl Gatsby with an Honors American Literature class, so let's make it spectacular! Don't hold back!

66 comments:

jasonk said...

Why do you think Myrtle's death has shaken George Wilson so much? He knew that Tom and Myrtle had something going on, and the leash in the desk drawer just supported his suspicion. Mr. Wilson seemed unhappy before her death; after the death,he seems even more devestated. Did going West have anything to do with his misery, what did he have in mind once he reached the West?

prestonK said...

I think that George felt he had some control of their life together by "locking" her away. Not in the over-controling Tom is with Daisy but in a way that gave him apart of his life back. Then he lost his wife in the instant they were just them two together, now he has lost her.

brennanl said...

Did anyone notice that whenever they talked about what time things happened, it was always noon? Why does he do this?

josed said...

Signing On...

RayS said...

Jason~ I think Wilson truly loved his wife, and going west would make him worry free about thier relationship,and her death just tore him apart because he loved her.

josed said...

JasonK: He lives for Myrtle. He's suffered in the ash piles for Myrtle, and only Myrtle. He loves her, and he wants her to be happy, and yet his alone.

aaronw said...

jason- because she was his wife.

catherinec said...

Jason- I think that Mr. Wilson actually loved his wife. He might have been so unhappy because he had found out that she had been having an affair through the dog lease on her dresser. From this he was also shaken because he couldn't accept that his wife was just killed, the woman that he had loved.

maddisonm said...

Do you think that Gatsby's death symbolizes anything?

KelseyL said...

I was just wondering about what you guys felt about what happened with Jordan and Nick in this chapter pg 155 non gold band. I feel like Nick is pushing her away in a sense. I feel like he is now repulsed by relationships. How do you think that this is going to play out?

brennanl said...

Kelsey-
I think that since Nick has seen so many broken relationships, he finally realizes that nothing is ever really going to work out. I think it kind of scares him, because he was talking about in ch 7 about being afraid of loneliness.

josed said...

brennanl: Probably, because that is the time of day where the sun is the highest, and thus it is the time where it is most illuminated, and where light is shed on shadows.

jasonk said...

why did Wilson kill himself after he shot Gatsby? was he afraid of jailtime? or did he see no more reasons to continue living

catherinec said...

kelsey- I think that Nick was just more concerned with Gatsby's morality than with where Jordan was located.

KelseyL said...

Bren
I was kind of thinking the same thing. I feel like because he has seen the lies and deciet of marriage and relationships, he sees that he doesn't want that for his life.

Alyssa S. said...

Kelsey- I agree. I think that seeing the complications of the relationships around him scared Nick, so he is trying not to get too involved with Jordan because he doesn't want this to happen to him.

Dennis K said...

jason- I think part of the reason has to do with the fact that his good name, his authority and his position were defied by his wife's actions. He married her out of love, yet she betrayed him and this is obviously not pleasant. Although he probably knew of the surreptitious happenings, he couldn't confront them until that day. Part of the reason may be just Myrtle’s reaction to seeing Tom with “another girl.” After she brought it up or showed emotion regarding it, Mr. Wilson probably just couldn’t take it anymore.

Maddie.Turley said...

Jason~

I don't believe he had much left to live for. Wilson was a slightly cowardly man, first his wife left him. The one woman he had ever loved, who, even with an affair, stayed with him died. Then he made himself kill another man, something that would have never happened otherwise. He changed, and he didn't want to live for anything that was left in his life.

brennanl said...

Kelsey-
Do you think that that is why Nick is so distant from everyone else?

RayS said...

Do you guys think Tom told Wilson that Gatsby owned the yellow car?

jasonk said...

dennis-
so this was the reasoning of his death? Were there therapists back then?

Alyssa S. said...

Jason- I think he killed himself because now that he had avenged Myrtle's death, he didn't have anything to live for. His business was dying, and he had lost his wife; those were the only things he had.

aaronw said...

Ray- I think that he just guessed because it was a nicer, perhaps.

josed said...

Kelsey: I think so. I mean, think about it. Jordan's a dishonest person, and it's the dishonesty that killed Gatsby. It's dishonesty that framed Gatsby for a crime he didn't commit. How can you be enamored after seeing two "lovers" split apart by a murder?

Besides, if he was a commitment phobe before, how could he ever commit to anything if the only other relationship he's seen ended with getting shot and framed?

Dennis K said...

KelseyL- I think it's a combination of preoccupation and disgust. He's had enough of people and arguments for the day and doesn't want to experience any more.

catherinec said...

What I found sort of strange this chapter is that Nick seemed like he knew that something extremely horrible was going to happen to Gatsby. On page 162 in the gold band, Nick reminds Gatsby that he's "worth the whole damn bunch put together" and he takes a really long time to leave.

brennanl said...

Why do you guys think that Nick was so obsessed with Gatsby? Because on page 154 no gold band it says "...I disapproved of him from beginning to end".

Dennis K said...

Jason- i was answering your very first question. sorry for the confusion

RayS said...

Has anyones preception on the meaning of the color yellow changed from the begining to the end of the book?

josed said...

Jason: Think of Wilson as the poor Gatsby and Myrtle is his unattainable Daisy. Then, you'll understand, because the only obstacle between them is death. He'll go through anything for his Golden Girl, even through Death's one-way barrier.

maddisonm said...

jasonk- I think that Wilson killed himself maybe because he did not want to deal with the guilt of the death of Gatsby, but mainly because he could not live with out Myrtle. It says on page 136 (no gold) that Wilson was "his wife's man and not his own", so he could not live without her.

Going off that, do you think that in our society men are more there wife’s man and not their own, or are women more their husbands woman, and not their own??

Maddie.Turley said...

Cat~

I agree, it did seem like there was an underlying tension, some undercurrent of knowledge that was rippling through Nick's head. He did take extra time with Gatsby and he seemed to be much more agreeable than he usually is, even in narrating.

Alyssa S. said...

Brennan- I thought that that showed that Nick was always friends with Gatsby and was there for him, but he never really agreed with how Gatsby was living, with his world centered around Daisy, and didn't agree with his actions based on that, but he liked him as an actual person.

jasonk said...

maddison-
very true, and yes i think there is a combination of both in todays society. Why do you think that people become the other gender's man/woman?

KelseyL said...

Ray
I never thought about that Tom might have told Wilson. I think that could be a logical assumption because Tom knew that it was Gatsby's car and Tom also just found out about Gatsby's and Daisy's affair and he wanted revenge on Gatsby.

maddisonm said...

Had Gatsby not been killed by Wilson what do you think would have become of him?

Alyssa S. said...

Before we read, we watched a video that described The Great Gatsby as "one of the greatest love stories of all time." So who is this love story about? What is the love story?

aaronw said...

Does it seem funny that the innocent people are dead, and not the guilty? (from seth in inner circle)

Dennis K said...

Ray- I think that the color’s meaning has remained the same. Towards the beginning, yellow was used as a symbol of truth (i.e. Dr. TJ Eckleburg's glasses- he sees all truth and can perceive all lies). Towards the end, Gatsby's yellow car mulled Mrs. Wilson. Probably a little foreshadowing there- Daisy will probably be caught and sentenced to punishment, for her crime cannot be shielded.

jasonk said...

I think that if gatsby wasnt killed, he would be a quiet nonsocial person. He only threw those parties so he could locate and see Daisy...

KelseyL said...

Alyssa
I think that at this point the love story is about Tom and Daisy. Maybe they will rekindle their love and maybe Fitzgerald is trying to show that true love can conquer even the toughest of situations.

Alyssa S. said...

Aaron- I don't think anyone in this story is innocent. They all have their problems and have wronged others, so they aren't innocent.

aaronw said...

Allyssa- i feel that this love story is mainly a tragic love. Not all love stories have happy endings: 7 pounds, Romeo and Juliet, etc. So it is a love that is almost forbidden, and one that won't fully prosper.

Dennis K said...

Aaron- I'm not so sure Mrs. Wilson was completely innocent. She cheated on her husband! Maybe she got what was coming for her.

Alyssa S. said...

Aaron- So who is the center of the tragic love story?

maddisonm said...

Think if that other car had not been driving down that road, at that exact time that Myrtle ran out and Daisy was driving down the road. It is just weird to think about that. Think about times in your life that that is happened. Is it a coincidence? Is it fate?

catherinec said...

Ray- My perception of the color yellow really hasn't changed all that much. The car kind of signifies greed because Daisy would have rather saved her own life and continued her affair with Gatsby than save a stranger's life. Yet it seems as though the color is a dicotomy because of Dr. Eckleberg's eyes. I really don't they signify greed because Wilson compares the eyes to God and greed is never associated with the "superiors".

aaronw said...

Allyssa and Dennis- I agree actually haha i was just bringing the question up because it was discussed in the inner circle. So the real question would be could there be any innocent people?

KelseyL said...

On pg 148 non gold band, it says "He went to her house, at first with other officers from Camp Taylor, then alone. It amazed him--he had never been in such a beautiful house." I feel like Gatsby is more mesmorized by Daisy's money than by Daisy. Yes I think that he loved her but I feel like he created this love.

Dennis K said...

Maddisonm- He would probably still find himself in his ordinary, cyclic pattern- throw parties and try to get Daisy. I guess it's also possible that if he wasn't killed, he may have been able to revitalize his relationship with Daisy....although I doubt it after what happend in ch.7

Maddie.Turley said...

Alyssa~

I feel like the love story has disappeared with the deaths. I agree with Aaron that they are tragic love stories. Gatsby lost the only love he had in death. Wilson lost his love to an accident, and instead of leading on with his life, killed himself. Nick has too much fear to start a true relationship with Jordan. And honestly, Tom may be a good match for Daisy, but I don't think he's a good love for her. He owns her in a way that she cannot escape. I think there were love stories throughout the eventful happenings, but they died with their benefactors.

josed said...

Have you guys noticed that in Modernist literature, the only reason it's impossible to attain emotion in the Modern world is because you die when you do? Francis found true courage with a buffalo bearing down on him, and gets his brains blown out. Gatsby finally gets over Daisy and finds another reason to live, and he gets shot to death. It's not quite that human emotions like courage no longer exists; it's that they only exist in death now. Which is a totally optimistic message, but I digress.

Alyssa S. said...

Aaron- I don't think there could be. I don't believe it's possible to live a perfect life. Everyone makes mistakes, so it's impossible to be innocent.

aaronw said...

Alyssa- I'd say that the center of this tragedy is Daisy. Mostly because she is married to Tom (who is cheating on her), but is cheating with Gatsby, who gets killed by the widower of Tom's lover. So they are all connected because of Diasy, and every tragic thing happens because of her.

josed said...

Aaron: Before Gatsby gets shot and after he gets over Daisy, he's innocent. He's shed the sins of his past and the uncertainties of the future and is living his life only for himself.

jasonk said...

aaron-
So is Daisy the catalyst of everything that has occurred troughout the book?

catherinec said...

kelsey- I agree, on page 157 in gold band it says "She vanished into her rich house, into her rich, full life, leaving Gatsby--nothing. He felt married to her, that was all." This is quite a statement. If you read into it it kind of shows that he really wasn't in love with her.

aaronw said...

True, Alyssa, but i guess i mean more innocent with the going-on's of this story. Not personality (since i think everyone is sinful, by nature), but with the story.

Dennis K said...

Jose- Good point! Just remember though that death is engaging. Authors may just throw it in to sell more copies.

brennanl said...

Jose-
I dont think Gatsby ever really got over Daisy. He has complete admiration for her from begining to end.

aaronw said...

Jason- Yes, i would say the major events are thanks to Diasy.

Alyssa S. said...

Aaron- That's very true. I never noticed that Daisy seemed to be the root of all of the problems in this story. But what problems does she bring Nick? Because she doesn't really seem to be connected to him, yet he is the narrator. So that kind of confuses me.

maddisonm said...

jose- how is it optimistic if those emotions only exist in death now? Why can't we experience those emotions while alive?

KelseyL said...

Cat
I agree, I feel like his whole relationship with Daisy has been a lie and just a dream that he has created for them. Is Fitzgerald trying to tell us something about relationships and how they are percieved to create happiness but really they are full of lies and broken hearts?

aaronw said...

Alyssa- I'd say that the thing Daisy has brought Nick is Gatsby. Nick wouldn't have known Gatsby without eventually meeting him at a party with Diasy. And Gatsby has his fair share of problems that Nick is dragged into.

aaronw said...

Jose, I disagree. Sure, that may show up in Modernist literature, but i think it is wrong to say we can only feel courage and such emotions in death. There are courageous people in life.