Does the veil represent something he has done in the past that has damaged his future? Or like Nicole just said, was this a message to show the people of the town to show them to all?
Mrs. Leclaire mentioned that the minister was hidding his face yet exposing something. What do you think he was hidding (besides his face) and exposing?
Agreed it was very frustrating. Why do you think this was? I'm pretty sure it was just his regular face underneath, but I still really wanted for it to be taken off.
Kayln~I think this story was pretty much about how everyone has secrets, but no matter how secret they'll always be there to keep you isolated from those that you love, unless you have a catharsis.:)
Catc- I think he was trying to hid his past actions, while exposing his to his community he had sinned. I don’t exactly know what his actions were but I have a feeling they had to do with the dead woman. What do you think?
This story reminded me of my old preist. He wore long white robes all the time, but instead of wearing the assigned color for a rope and tunic, he wore black. His explanation was that he will wear the correct color and not black when those within the school admited their wrong-doings and asked for forgiveness. Does this go along with the story and that minister in any way.
Allison- I think he might have worn the veil as a kind of punishment to himself for his sins. As an effect, everyone else in the town felt as though they had punishment also. This minister just had an odd way of teaching the effects of sin.
alyssa s. - On a superficial level, the veil alienated him from society, and wearing it sacrificed his wife and normal interaction with people. I'm still not clear about how it affected him on a deeper level. Revealing his sins or the sins of others?
Hey Kalyn Maybe he wore the veil in death to remind people that actions we have done with this life affect our afterlife whether it is in Heaven, Moksha, Nirvana, or whatever treats your fancy. But I can't be sure...Maybe he just grew found of it.
Allison- Maddison made a comment similar to yours, wondering what his sins were. She thought that his sins had a connection with the deceased woman in the story. Do you think this could have been his sin?
Erino~I don't think that he became fond of the veil. I think that the minister was very very afraid of the veil. In one passage it said that he would avoid mirrors and was frightened when he saw his own reflection. It was so revealing because he was pretty much sayng that I am hiding secrets, and secret sin, and I'm not going to hide that.
Hey Allison For this story I just imagine his sins to be something really light. The veil he wears shows the degree of his sins. Yet, I think that Hawthorne would appreciate the irony with his sins being small in contradiction to his huge punishment. I mean we all do that; get down on ourselves for small little mistakes.
At the funeral of the girl at the beginning, I think a couple people thought they saw the 'spirit' of the minister walking hand in hand with the girl. Why is this significant? Do you think the minister had something to do with her death?
Kayln- I think it kind of became a symbol to them, even though they didn't want to admit it. He used the veil to make a point to the people, and I think they understood what he was saying, but didn't want to face it.
Catem- I defiantly agree. He was almost discusted with himself that he had commited these certain sins and the veil was always there to constantly remind him.
Rachel- I thought that was important too. I think he might have had something to do with her death, or knew something about her that everyone else didn't so they saw them walking hand in hand. I also believe that her death, and his role in it, was part of the reason that he started wearing the veil.
catherine~I think that the minister had some relationship with the girl that died in the begining, and might have felt responsible for his death, whether he physically killed her, or just felt responsible, I think he felt guilt for her death for the rest of his life. I think the only difference between his secrets and others is that he acknowledges that he has secrets.
Hey CAT, I just said he grew fond of it for this reason: we like to know we are fixing for what we have done wrong. Sometimes, though this is not true for most, people like to punish themselves cause it makes them feel better and help them deal with the sins they have committed. In this way, he could have become fond of the pain and suffereing for in reality it helps him deal with what he has done. In "They Things They Carried", remember when Rat said "It hurts so good..."
Allison- I agree, Minister Hooper did onot seem really affect by the woman's death. For me, it is really hard to tell what his sins are. He just randomly starts wearing this veil to a service on sunday, so i'm not totally positive what his sins were.
Catherine and Allison~ Maybe Mr. Hooper never commited any horrific sins, yet because of that the small ones that he did make made him feel really guilty.
Hey Erin, I just can't see how he would have grown fond of the veil. He gave up his loved one, his wife, his main companion for this veil. He can't even look at his own face!
I agree with the inner circle, everyone, no matter who they are, hides everything. Maybe this sounds a little too depressing, but doesn't everyone have thier secrets to bear. WHat's that quote? I think it is something like "Everyone is entitled to one huge secret that would change their fate forever."
helen p - I made that connection too. The minister seems really concerned with attoning for sins or with exposing them so that he can move on in the next life without sin, or without his veil. It also contradics the puritains though becasue they expected to pay for their sins in the afterlife, not in mortal life. So I guess I'm confused about that now...
@ everyone talking about what the black veil signifies--I think that Hopper committed adultery, therefore he feels guilty and cannot show his face to Elizabeth, and feels he need to cover his sins within his heart
Hey Maddison Isn't that a huge leap! I mean he is a preist! And comitting adultery is against one of the ten comandments. I believe that we shouldn't know each others sins.
I think a main foreshadow that Hopper could have committed adultery was when the two people say that they saw him and the dead women walking hand in hand.
maddisonm - I agree that the minister might have committed adultery. It goes really well with when he started wearing the black veil - at the young woman's funeral. When do you think he committed adultery with her, and why do you think he started wearing the veil at her funeral?
Hey Cat That's a great assumption! I never thought about it that way! It makes sense for he is only hiding his eyes, not his mouth which preaches holy word. From this, one oculd assume that he never really did anything bad, he just witnessed something that has been bad! WOW! You make me think!
I am not sure, it is just an idea. Maybe he is hiding his eyes so that others will not know of his sins and he is trying to escape them. He could also be protecting himself from any more sin.
Maddison~It seems likely that adultry may have taken place with the dead girl, but I think the important thing is that something about her death triggered or seemed to trigger him into wearing the veil.
rachel- Maybe it had been going on for a while, but when she died a part of him died, and all that was left was Elizibeth, and he finally realized how guilty he was
Everyone has a dark side to them, and some people may show it more than others, which is hard to face because we don't like to see the bad in ourselves.
HEY COACH I believe Nat Hawthorne was trying to get us to awknowledge that all people sin, yet to note that it is not our place to know each others sins. Maybe he also meant for us to realize that excessive punishment for sins is far beyond reason; instead, we should show remorse and move on.
74 comments:
I don't really understand this story. He didn't take off the veil in the end, did he?
no he didn't... which made me mad
What does the dead woman signify?
Erin- No, he never took it off, and they buried him with it on.
I also don't understand this story but I feel like the veil is one of the most important symbols from this unit
Do you guys think that the minister might have had something to do with the death of the girl, and therefore put the veil on?
Aaron
Why didn't he ever take it off?
Does the veil represent something he has done in the past that has damaged his future? Or like Nicole just said, was this a message to show the people of the town to show them to all?
Mrs. Leclaire mentioned that the minister was hidding his face yet exposing something. What do you think he was hidding (besides his face) and exposing?
Agreed it was very frustrating. Why do you think this was? I'm pretty sure it was just his regular face underneath, but I still really wanted for it to be taken off.
Kayln~I think this story was pretty much about how everyone has secrets, but no matter how secret they'll always be there to keep you isolated from those that you love, unless you have a catharsis.:)
Cate-- Thanks, that makes more sense.
Was the veil a way of hiding himself or for showing the people their error... cause I didn't get it
Rachel~I think that the veil might have forced him to confront his sins and made him really think about the bad things he did.
Catc- I think he was trying to hid his past actions, while exposing his to his community he had sinned. I don’t exactly know what his actions were but I have a feeling they had to do with the dead woman. What do you think?
This story reminded me of my old preist. He wore long white robes all the time, but instead of wearing the assigned color for a rope and tunic, he wore black. His explanation was that he will wear the correct color and not black when those within the school admited their wrong-doings and asked for forgiveness. Does this go along with the story and that minister in any way.
So we keep talking about what effect the veil had on others, but what effect did the veil have on himself?
What is significate about him wearing the veil when he is dead?
Kayln~ I think the significance of him keeping his veil on in death was that only God may see his secret sins.
Allison- I think he might have worn the veil as a kind of punishment to himself for his sins. As an effect, everyone else in the town felt as though they had punishment also. This minister just had an odd way of teaching the effects of sin.
Kalyn
I think it was because no one else could reveal the face (facts) that had been hidden for so long
alyssa s. - On a superficial level, the veil alienated him from society, and wearing it sacrificed his wife and normal interaction with people. I'm still not clear about how it affected him on a deeper level. Revealing his sins or the sins of others?
Hey Kalyn
Maybe he wore the veil in death to remind people that actions we have done with this life affect our afterlife whether it is in Heaven, Moksha, Nirvana, or whatever treats your fancy. But I can't be sure...Maybe he just grew found of it.
Catherine
Okay that makes a lot of sense, Thanks; but I wonder what his sins were
Alyssa--Was it out of fear of revealing their secrets that the villagers couldn't take off the veil?
Rachel- I was kind of confused about that too. I interpreted it that the veil was exposing his sins, in order to make a point ot the others.
Allison- Maddison made a comment similar to yours, wondering what his sins were. She thought that his sins had a connection with the deceased woman in the story. Do you think this could have been his sin?
Erin, that makes sense and seems to go along with the whole Christian perspective and especially Puritan views.
Erino~I don't think that he became fond of the veil. I think that the minister was very very afraid of the veil. In one passage it said that he would avoid mirrors and was frightened when he saw his own reflection. It was so revealing because he was pretty much sayng that I am hiding secrets, and secret sin, and I'm not going to hide that.
Hey Allison
For this story I just imagine his sins to be something really light. The veil he wears shows the degree of his sins. Yet, I think that Hawthorne would appreciate the irony with his sins being small in contradiction to his huge punishment. I mean we all do that; get down on ourselves for small little mistakes.
Catherine
It's possible but I dont know but it did seem to affect him. What do you think?
At the funeral of the girl at the beginning, I think a couple people thought they saw the 'spirit' of the minister walking hand in hand with the girl. Why is this significant? Do you think the minister had something to do with her death?
Kayln- I think it kind of became a symbol to them, even though they didn't want to admit it. He used the veil to make a point to the people, and I think they understood what he was saying, but didn't want to face it.
Hey Hey Erin,
I don't think he grew found of it...haha
But why is the secrets important to the afterlife?
Catem- I defiantly agree. He was almost discusted with himself that he had commited these certain sins and the veil was always there to constantly remind him.
Erin
That makes sense unless he had something to do with the death of that girl...which a lot of us are focusing on
Rachel- I thought that was important too. I think he might have had something to do with her death, or knew something about her that everyone else didn't so they saw them walking hand in hand. I also believe that her death, and his role in it, was part of the reason that he started wearing the veil.
catherine~I think that the minister had some relationship with the girl that died in the begining, and might have felt responsible for his death, whether he physically killed her, or just felt responsible, I think he felt guilt for her death for the rest of his life. I think the only difference between his secrets and others is that he acknowledges that he has secrets.
I think you are supposed to make a connection between the death of the girl and the veil since they concided
Hey CAT,
I just said he grew fond of it for this reason: we like to know we are fixing for what we have done wrong. Sometimes, though this is not true for most, people like to punish themselves cause it makes them feel better and help them deal with the sins they have committed. In this way, he could have become fond of the pain and suffereing for in reality it helps him deal with what he has done.
In "They Things They Carried", remember when Rat said "It hurts so good..."
What are your thoughts on the second to last paragraph?
Allison- I agree, Minister Hooper did onot seem really affect by the woman's death. For me, it is really hard to tell what his sins are. He just randomly starts wearing this veil to a service on sunday, so i'm not totally positive what his sins were.
Helen-- what made you think of that connection with the veil and the death
I think the minister symbolizes puritan society. He is punishing himself and looking toward the next life like the characters in the Crucible.
Catherine
I think thats what makes this story so, creepy I guess.
HEy Kslyn
Have you studied for K-dawg's test yet! Hello, KARMA, babe!
Catherine and Allison~ Maybe Mr. Hooper never commited any horrific sins, yet because of that the small ones that he did make made him feel really guilty.
Madison- I saw that passage to mean that he was saying that he hoped everyone else would experience what he had while wearing the veil.
Erin!!!
I'll have you know I did study. So ha!
Cate,
That's a good possibilty because he is a minister so he wouldn't commit large sins
Hey Erin,
I just can't see how he would have grown fond of the veil. He gave up his loved one, his wife, his main companion for this veil. He can't even look at his own face!
I agree with the inner circle, everyone, no matter who they are, hides everything. Maybe this sounds a little too depressing, but doesn't everyone have thier secrets to bear. WHat's that quote? I think it is something like "Everyone is entitled to one huge secret that would change their fate forever."
Erin-- I disagree with you that they hide everything. Yes, they have secrets but I don't think that anyone could hide everything.
helen p - I made that connection too. The minister seems really concerned with attoning for sins or with exposing them so that he can move on in the next life without sin, or without his veil. It also contradics the puritains though becasue they expected to pay for their sins in the afterlife, not in mortal life. So I guess I'm confused about that now...
@ everyone talking about what the black veil signifies--I think that Hopper committed adultery, therefore he feels guilty and cannot show his face to Elizabeth, and feels he need to cover his sins within his heart
Maybe the minister was shielding his sight from the sins of the society.
Because the veil doesn't cover his whole face and his mouth is still exposed, maybe he comited his sins through sight, maybe he saw something.
Helen
Wow that is really interesting I didnt think of that, but would he be hiding his sins from them too?
Hey Maddison
Isn't that a huge leap! I mean he is a preist! And comitting adultery is against one of the ten comandments. I believe that we shouldn't know each others sins.
I think a main foreshadow that Hopper could have committed adultery was when the two people say that they saw him and the dead women walking hand in hand.
maddisonm - I agree that the minister might have committed adultery. It goes really well with when he started wearing the black veil - at the young woman's funeral. When do you think he committed adultery with her, and why do you think he started wearing the veil at her funeral?
Catherine- Yeah! I wouldn't have though of that but it's a very good idea. Do you think the sin he saw committed had to do with the girl?
Hey Cat
That's a great assumption! I never thought about it that way! It makes sense for he is only hiding his eyes, not his mouth which preaches holy word. From this, one oculd assume that he never really did anything bad, he just witnessed something that has been bad! WOW! You make me think!
Allison
I am not sure, it is just an idea. Maybe he is hiding his eyes so that others will not know of his sins and he is trying to escape them. He could also be protecting himself from any more sin.
Maddison~It seems likely that adultry may have taken place with the dead girl, but I think the important thing is that something about her death triggered or seemed to trigger him into wearing the veil.
Helen
Hmmmmm that could be true, ugh why did this have to be a confusing story
rachel- Maybe it had been going on for a while, but when she died a part of him died, and all that was left was Elizibeth, and he finally realized how guilty he was
Erin
Hathorne did write a novel where a puritan woman commited adultery.
My big lesson of this story is that we cannot hide our sins
One big idea that I took from this story is that everything is cause and effect. We are greatly affected by the people around us.
Everyone has a dark side to them, and some people may show it more than others, which is hard to face because we don't like to see the bad in ourselves.
HEY COACH
I believe Nat Hawthorne was trying to get us to awknowledge that all people sin, yet to note that it is not our place to know each others sins. Maybe he also meant for us to realize that excessive punishment for sins is far beyond reason; instead, we should show remorse and move on.
I believe that this story teaches us that when everyone comforms to committing sins that it is still bad.
I think this story really emphasized that there is no way to escape what you have done.
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