Wednesday, January 28, 2009

PW Live Blogging: Chapters 11-13


Use this blog to participate both thoughtfully and frequently as you listen to the inner circle's discussion of chapters 11-13 (though feel free to discuss earlier chapters as well) in Twain's Pudd'nhead Wilson.

As always, remember to use proper spelling and capitalization, to refer to the name of the person to whom you are responding, and to hit the F5 key to refresh. While not all blogs are graded, this one will be because I want to give you credit for your thoughtfulness and willingness to discuss while I'm not there.


Keep up your high standard of intellectualism while I'm anesthetized!

94 comments:

ErinO said...
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Kalyn K said...
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Anonymous said...

The only brilliant thought I had was when the twins were talking about how Luigi had to kill that man. He said that if he hadn't have killed the man (who was trying to kill his brother), he would have died as well. This was exactly like Pudd'nhead's comment about the dog and how he'd only need half of the dog to kill it.

KelseyL said...

Do you guys think that the twins are conjoined or not?

ErinO said...

Hey everyone! I like Jose's question. Do you think that the duel is mocking the "southern gentlemen"?

maddisonm said...

What significance will or has the fingerprints played in the book?

KelseyL said...

Maddieh

I like that idea and that does make sense. I wonder why they were so open about telling that they had killed someone.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I forgot to add that my thought works if the twins were conjoined.

And it shows how hypocritical the town is because the comment seems rational when the twins (who the whole town is enamored with) say it, but it's ridiculous when Wilson says it.

KelseyL said...

maddisonm

I think that the fingerprints play a roll in the book. I kind of think that the fingerprints and the palm reading shows the secrets of the people.

maddisonm said...

Maddieh- WOHA good connection!!!
Kelseyl- I think the twins are conjoined, because of maddieh's comment

ErinO said...

Hey Maddie! I love that comment. Maybe Twain is refering back to Wilson's comment. It makes sense. Do you remember that article we read about twins in the gothic unit (well, I think we read it). It was about how when one thing happens to one twin, the same thing happens to another. Maybe this is using the same idea.

nicolek said...

I agree with what Leslie just said. I think that Twain was trying to make it ironic and pose the question was it nature or nurture that made him a coward?

brennanl said...

kelsey-
I think they might be, because they are never seen one without the other, and they seem to kind of "complete" each other. Do you think the twins are symbolic of anything?

RayS said...

madison~ I think the fingerprints play into the theme of identity in the book. You can tell who a persoon is by thier finger prints but you, but no one can tell tom and chambers apart by how they look.

Anonymous said...

Kelsey- I think that the twins are suppossed to be the same and the opposite of Chambers and Tom. If the twins are conjoined, then they are really one in the same, just like Tom and Chambers. But unlike Tom and Chambers (especially Tom), they are comfortable with everyone knowing their secrets. So I think that the twins are there to show that Tom and Chambers can coexist.

brennanl said...

ray-

Do you think that the fingerpritns represent who they are? or just the truth? if that makes sense.

nicolek said...

Question: so I thought the palm reading part was so random. Like all of the sudden Wilson was an expert plam reader and could tell everything about Lugi. Why do you think Twain wrote it that way?

KelseyL said...

Do you guys think that Wilson knows that Chambers and Tom were switched and he's just not saying anything?

maddisonm said...

How do the sayings from Pudd'nhead Wilson's "Calendar" fit into the story?

DennisRocks said...

Erin: I agree with your question, I think Twain is truly satirizing the white "gentleman" here. Contrary to the popular conduct, judge Driscoll's invitation to a duel reveals that law is not as accepted as it is thought to be-fighting is now the way out.

ErinO said...

Hey Kelsey! With Maddie;s comment, I believe that the twins could be connected, but I don't personally believe they are. With Maddie's connection and the text clues, it seems as if they are, but to me it seems as if that is somewhat unrealistic. But the conjoined twin idea is most likely.

RayS said...

Bren~ well both, who they are is the truth

helenp said...

Maddieh
- that is a really good point connecting tom and chambers to the twins like that. I agree that the twins are conjoined and that connection is insightful.

DennisRocks said...

Nicole: I think twain added the palm reading because we know he was fascinated by the supernatural/unknown. The palm reading scene channels this emotion into the story.

RayS said...

Kelsey~ I honestly don't think Wilson knows, he seems like a charecter who cares about status and would care if a "black" a high status.

brennanl said...

ray-
like i mean from the fingerpritns, Tom is Chambers, but Tom doesnt act like Chambers. So do the fingerprints confine who they are?

Kalyn K said...

Erin: I think that he is mocking the white gentleman during the deul

MollyS said...

Kelsey-
I think that the twins are not conjoined twins, but I think they may have been seen that way in Twain's mind originally. When I was reading about the book online I read something about how the story of Pudd'nhead Wilson was loosely based upon the story of Those Extraordinary Twins, and in that story there ARE conjoined twins. There are just too many images already implanted in my mind for me to picture the Itallians as conjoined, and the fact that I have illustrations which show them as separate probably doesn't assist in this matter either.

helenp said...

Erin
- what are you trying to say? that is really confusing! You do not think they are conjoined?

Anonymous said...

Nicole- I don't know why, but hands are always connected to Wilson. Like the fingerprints and the palm reading. It's strange and I can't figure it out.

But I think Twain wrote it that way to show that Wilson is pretty modest (so he didn't want to claim to be an expert) but he is really interested in oddities in the world, I guess.

Kalyn K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RayS said...

Bren~ No, thier fingerprints define who they really are, under thier status, and under the life they were thrust in.

ErinO said...

Hey Maddie! I agree with you. Tom and Chambers are like "twins". Even though they are not born the same, they are the same in character and likeness. By adding the Twins to the story, Twain shows that the two boys could coexist with each other in this society. Maybe this is Twain mocking the ignorance of slavery again.

maddisonm said...

kelseyl- Yes, I do think that Wilson knows about the twins. But since he is different than the rest of the society, he is not just going to go out a 'blab' about it. So going back to my earlier question, what will the fingerprints and Wilson possibly knowing this, lead to?

Kalyn K said...

Sorry Helen my bad *DUEL*

ErinO said...

Hey Helen! I don't personally think they are conjoined. The evidence the class has provided though makes it seem as if they are conjoined. So, I don't. But the class' idea makes more sense.

DennisRocks said...

Maddie: I agree that the hands probabbly have some significance in the story. I think twain chose hands over any other body part because they reveal so much about identity and character. Everyone's fingerprint is explicitly different and most importantly- they can't be changed.

nicolek said...

With what they're talking about in the inner circle, I think that with the twins being the same but different, it's kind of like slavery. They act like their races are so defining but really everyone is the same.

Anonymous said...

I think the twin idea is interesting. We all seem to be thinking of Tom and Chambers as twins because they were born on the same day and all that. And then we have the conjoined twins. So, I think it's weird that we have so many twins but none of them are "normal" twins. We have "twins" who aren't even related and conjoined twins.

MollyS said...

Maddie-
I never thought about the connection between the two sets of 'twins' before you mentioned. That seems like just the kind of idea that Twain would try to bring into the story, the parallels between the two sets of twins, and also the huge differences that define them. I wonder what message he could have been trying to convey with this idea.

nicolek said...

Dennis and Maddie~ I agree with the hands symbol. And also with hands they are always out in the open. Like when you first meet someone you shake their hands so it kind of seems that even with the people in your society that you think you know so well, they can still have so many secrets.

RayS said...

Nicole~ Thats a really good connection!Because we are all human but they made them come across so diffrent

DennisRocks said...

so what can we conclude regarding power and corruption? look at tom and chambers- it seems like the distribution of power affects both characters

maddisonm said...

Do you think that we can control our fate or are we predestine? Think about Tom and Chambers.

ErinO said...

Hey everyone! This goes with the inner circle's discussion on "nature" verse "nurture". I beleive that Tom and Chambers would not have been very different in character if they were raised in the places they were supossed to be. I think that nature is more prominant than nurture. The environment in which they were raised do affect their character a little, but not enough to change them completely.

MollyS said...

Nicole- It is this similarity in their blood lines that makes the true message of the story! Everyone has the potential to be anyone, but what we actually become is mostly beyond our own control!

Anonymous said...

One major satire point of Twain's is about nature vs. nurture. "Chambers" was brought up as a slave but he is the more likable character. This shows that the way you grow up tells a lot about you. And "Chambers" is supposably black (which is thought of as the least desirable race) yet he is portrayed as one of the best characters.

helenp said...

Dennis
Obviously their places in the society have impacted them, but do you think their personalities affect that too? Maybe "tom" was just a nasty child to begin with who got carried away.

ErinO said...

Hey Molly! Can you clarify your last comment for me? Are you saying how people turn out in life is beyond thier own control?

DennisRocks said...

Maddison: fate is unyielding at times. You can't choose who your parents are or what environment you grow up in, but I think the effect of fate can be countered. It is hard to escape the confines of fate but it is possible

brennanl said...

helen-
going off that idea that "Tom" was just born a jerk, do you think that makes twain racist? like do you think he made the real chambers like he did showing that blacks are just naturally like that?

MollyS said...

Erin-
I agree with your idea, I think that "Chambers" would probably have a bit more superiority in the way he acts, and "Tom" would probably humble a bit, but in the end you are who you are, and yes, other people can form who you will become, but your personality and true self will always be the same.

helenp said...

erin
I agree with you that they wouldn't be much different if their roles were reversed, but I don't think their personalities have anything to do with race (you didn't say that, but I was just throwing that in there).

Anonymous said...

Dennis- I should have known you'd bring up how power corrupts. Ha ha. This is just another example of that. "Tom" had all the power in the relationship between him and "Chambers", yet "Chambers" grew up to be the better person.

I just wonder if they would be different if they grew up as equals, then once they were older, "Tom" became the master and "Chambers" became the slave.
Does that make sense?

Kalyn K said...

Bren- I don't think that making "tom" a jerk makes Twain racist. I think he was just showing the differences of the twins

helenp said...

oh, and what I just said answers bren's question. I do not think his personality is twain being racist.

Anonymous said...

Alison said something about the Civil War in the inner circle, and it got me thinking that that is another example of two conflicting parts of a whole (the North and South). Maybe Twain wrote this book about the Civil War?

ErinO said...

Hey Kalyn!
What if Twain was trying to be a little racist in this book? I beleive that Tom's character is meant to be racist. Twain was trying to mock racism in his own way. But sometimes, in order to mock somehting, you need to be it first and therefore fully understand it. So, maybe Twain is a little racist, but that's waht makes his work more powerful.

DennisRocks said...

Maddie: If they grew up on a level playing field, they'd be a whole lot more similar. Honestly, personality is developed through upbringing. Tom was developed in the rich and privileged world, and he was corrupted by his wealth. Chambers is the opposite.

brennanl said...

THIS IS NOW FOR CHAPTERS 14-16

maddisonm said...

What satire is there in Roxy being sold down the river by her own son?

josed said...

Does anyone think that things are going really well for Tom, as opposed to previous chapters? Why might this be?

DennisRocks said...

Maddison: I think it's more of irony here, but I guess Twain could humor that notion that a son would sell his own mother into slavery.

KelseyL said...

There seems like there is a lot of deception in this book. Why do you think that decieving people is important to this story?

MollyS said...

Maddison-
I think it shows how relentless slavery really is, or at least how serious the people involved take it. I think that this could have been an example of Twain satirizing slavery, by making fun of the fact that there is truly no love connected to the attitudes of the people.

josed said...

I think that the satire of Roxy being sold down the river is that she offers her freedom up to help save him, and then he sells her Down The River (cue dramatic tone). It is the ultimate betrayal that he does to his mother for money, and it parodies the whole heart-felt scene that it should have been.

Which begs another question: do you believe Roxy was betrayed by Tom in being sold down the river?

lesliel said...

Jose
I don't think that at the time Tom was betraying her. I think he thought the plan was good and was amazed at how much she loved him. I thought that originally he was going to follow the plan and buy her back.

MollyS said...

Kelsey- I think that Twain is definitely satirizing deception, because when you think about it. Deception is one of those human nature things that seems so stupid when you think about it, I mean, what is the point of manipulation? It is juvenile and immature to pull stunts like that, and I think that Twain is trying to portray Tom as an immature character.

Does this immaturity say anything about Tom? Or does it say something about Twain's ideas about race, or rather his satirical targets regarding race?

DennisRocks said...

Kelsey: I agree with you and think the story is structured this way because the validity/decline of many characters (Mainly Tom) is largely dependant upon deception of others. For example: tom deceives his uncle to protect his image- tom reveals that he did not want to fight luigi because luigi was a "mass killer." characters in the book lie to achieve what they want.

brennanl said...

leslie-
Why do you think he changed his mind though?

josed said...

Kelsey-- I think deception is so important because it satirizes the typical "traditional values" of the South, that was the main point of slavery: without it, their society would be corrupt. Yet right there, corruption is laid bare, with or without slaves.

MollyS said...

Jose- I do not think that Tom was betraying Roxy by selling her down the river, despite the fact that she is his biological mother, that is not the way he was raised, so while it may not have been a very wise or respectful, or especially nice thing for him to do, it was not betrayal.

lesliel said...

Bren,
I think it was the inner greed that he's formed by always getting what he wants. Though he tamed that a little when he realized he was a slave it still came up again. He's going to be too "well off" to bother with dealing with his mom.

KelseyL said...

I think that it is kind of ironic that Roxy saved "Tom" from being sent down the river but "Tom" ends up sending Roxy down the river.

josed said...

But why would he sell Roxy down the river, instead of Up the river? It would mean less chance of her being mistreated, if he really loved her.

DennisRocks said...

Jose- although the main purpose of selling his mother into slavery was to reimburse himself, his mother was kind enough to accept on her OWN accord. Also, she was sold to a non-abusive owner. She's in good hands.

lesliel said...

Kelsey,
I agree! That might be something else Twain is satirizing.

lesliel said...

Jose,
Good point. It was Roxy's idea, however. He might have just not thought it through.

brennanl said...

leslie-
thats another thing i noticed. Tom feels guilty for a second, but he always gets over it. What do you think twain makes him like that? Is there a certain purpose other than to make him unlikeable?

maddisonm said...

josed- Do you think he really loves her? With the way Tom was raised was he ever shown what love truly is? If he does "understand" love then how could he be a slave owner?

lesliel said...

Bren,
I feel like Twain created the character, Tom, so that he could make a person with a lot of the "weaknesses" of mankind, as well as white people.

josed said...

Wow! Inner circle had a great idea! Eve repented because it wasn't a Southern watermelon (which actually are very yummy in real life), but what does that say about the South? Is it not repentent of slavery?

brennanl said...

Leslie-
Which is kind of ironic, sense because until recently,he was a symbol of strenth.

MollyS said...

Brenn- I think that Twain paints him in that light in order to keep constant with the image that has already been portrayed of 'Tom' so far in the story. Yes, at a point we were led to believe that he was changing, but I think it is important for Tom to be constantly shown as an almost evil character. This may be because of the theme of satirizing race, or maybe it's just because he thinks Tom is naturally mean. Either way, I think that it was important for the readers to still hate Tom no matter what.

brennanl said...

only i meant strength not streth or whatever i put

lesliel said...

Bren,
Agreed! So maybe he's trying to show how slave owners think of themselves as the authorities, but in reality, they're only their because of their status, and skin color.

lesliel said...

*there

And that if the slaves weren't so prejudiced against it could easily be the other way.

brennanl said...

Molly-

What do you think the unerlying point is of making Tom the characther he is? Like whatpoint is Twain making by him?

josed said...

Also, I don't think Tom loves Roxy, and I don't think being sold down the river was part of Roxy's plan. If you read the bottom passage in page 99 and the top of page 100, you can tell she's pretty shocked. Personally, I think Tom chose to sell her down the river, and she realized it: a wordless exchange between mother and son.I believe this because down the river means to the southern Mississippi River states : a.k.a. The Deep South. At least that's what I think.

brennanl said...

Leslie-

So is Twain saying that everyone is equal, or white people are less than?

lesliel said...

Bren,
Perhaps...

lesliel said...

Bren,
Perhaps...

DennisRocks said...

Jose- she was sold to a farmer in arkensas, not the deep south. Up/Down the river is merely a phrase to mean "somewhere else." if she's "goin down the river," don't take it too literally.

MollyS said...

Brennan-
I just think that he wants Tom to be shown as the quintessential power driven white man. I think that Twain wants to have a strong message against racism, and by showing that the powerful men are the same as all others but they only have power then he is making a strong point that power is the ultimate diluting agent of goodness in terms of these boys.